Off-topic Discussion moved from Diver Missing in the Bahamas thread

[ScubaPink]

The eyes roll back to protect their eyes from danger or injury. The aggression is on the part of the diver.

 

[boulderjohn]

John,
Now if I had been lucky enough to grow up in the area around Vail and Beavercreek ( which I have skied several times), it would probably be easy for me to believe that this was THE ONLY place to ski in the world, and that the only skiing that was important, was the skiing in co....Instead, I grew up in Western New York, and the ski area like Glennwood Acres, Kissing Bridge, and Holiday Valley were heavily laden with awesome trails back in the 70's....( not awesome by C0 standards I am aware )
Today, while I have not skied this area for a decade or so, my understanding from friends back in Western NY, is that the trails are gone, due to liability.
So you might want to modify your response to my last post a bit..

No need for me to modify anything. As I said, "at least in Colorado."

So why is Colorado any different from those areas?

I suspect the reason is a lot more like what is happening with the golf courses around America, as explained in a fairly recent issue of Golf Digest. About 15-20 years ago people got the idea that golfers wanted to go out every day and experience conditions like the U.S. and British Opens. They wanted a real test of golf skill. Turned out not to be true. A lot of those courses have closed, and they are working to tame the others down as much as possible. They need customers, and they found out that most customers did not like that kind of course. The few who do were not enough to pay the bills.

As it turns out, I learned to ski in western New York and northern New Jersey, and I remember those miserable days well. What was wrong with those ski areas was a lack of skiable acres. We stood in line forever for a ridiculously short run. How do you get more skiable acres for the masses of your skiers? Well, it isn't by making a big part of your property accessible to only a handful of dare devils. You make as many broad slops as you can so you can get more people on the slope and fewer people getting angry in the lift lines. In Colorado, all of the ski area with runs through the trees have an enormous amount of nicely groomed runs as well. They have room for both.

The ski industry is close to lawsuit proof for the cases you describe. We have had a lot of information here in Colorado about it, so I am positive about that. They have pretty much nothing to fear once you buy your lift ticket and head for the hills.

 

[danvolker]

The ski industry is close to lawsuit proof for the cases you describe. We have had a lot of information here in Colorado about it, so I am positive about that. They have pretty much nothing to fear once you buy your lift ticket and head for the hills.

A lot of us would be totally happy to sign a dive boat waiver, stating that all we expect from the boat is a ride out to the dive site, and that we would "like" a ride back....that there are zero safety or liability responsibilities we want imparted on the boat. We had this discussion a lot around 1995 when tech diving began to explode, and many boats were nervous about what would happen if one of their tech divers did not re-surface.
The point is...the point you are not helping me make, is that many of us DO NOT WANT THE STINKING NANNY PROTECTIONS AND LIABILITIES ON THE BOAT.....THAT IN A FREE MARKET, WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE ADVANCED BOATS, AND NOVICE BOATS... and plenty in-between.

But we need "real" Advanced boats,..... just like Snow Skiing needs to have double diamond runs and downhill race courses, and mogul fields -- like Look Ma at Vail.

 

[vincent54]

On the back cover of SCUBA Diving magazine this month, the full page ad is for a Neptunic suit designed for shark dives. One of the main articles is a Bimini dive with Hammerheads, using bait of course.. A Mr. Watson is the expert for this dive encounter. 250 for a half a day of diving, what a deal. Sharks equal profit.

Sharks are the money makers and the shark feeding is here to stay. My only worry is the giant BC needed for the impressive metal suit required to dive these areas. Without it, i'll be stuck on the bottom and eventually become a dive site. Cheers

 

[Mike]

You are proud to be among the "elitist" divers on Abernathy's boats who exploit sharks for bragging rights and a photo on their wall? Luring them into a circle of divers who I see pushing away curious sharks via a whack on the nose with their cameras and flash bulbs exploding underwater like D.C. on the 4th of July.

It is for profit.




​

You should understand that it's not that black and white.

Put some perspective on things. On the far side you have people who long line sharks, cut their fins off and throw them back in the water to drown on the other far side you have people like you, who just want to observe sharks from afar with zero interference, if one shows up on one out of your 200 dives you're happy for the natural experience.

And nowhere even in the middle is a shark diving charter. That charter business and the divers on the trip are way more on your end of the scale than on the other one.

You should also look at the big picture, the long way around to all this. The more mundane exposure to sharks by people, the more divers who dive with them and experience them many not 100% naturally but far from endangering them, the better it is for sharks and all marine species. Only through education and understanding and exposure do we benefit the seas.

Even Jacques Cousteau the great guardian of the seas used to kill sharks indiscriminately due to the stereotyping of sharks that has only changed due to education and knowledge gained in the last few decades. Watch some old Cousteau shows on Youtube and be ready to gasp at their treatment and being labelled dangerous devils of the sea.

Remember if it's not for profit there usually would be nothing at all. Do you want tax payer paid for dive trips to advance our knowledge of marine species? You'll be waiting a long long time for that. We've had a lion fish problem for over a decade now and the government has all but ignored it. It's up to private enterprise to lead the way and open doors to exploration and understanding. There always has to be exploitation tied hand in hand any commercial enterprise.

 

[danvolker]

SCUBAPINK,
Mike is spot on with this.....the "world"...the masses that create the present and future health of the planet, are totally fine believing that the SHARK is the monster in the movie Jaws.....The "Masses" are fine with long-lining and mass fishing of the sharks for fishing sport, or for asian delicacies. The masses have never thought much at all about sharks, beyond the horror they experienced when they watched the movie Jaws. And the masses do NOT have an interest in suddenly becoming ACTIVISTS that would lobby and demand an END TO SHARK FISHING.... As Jim Abernethy said in his movie "Sharks:This is your Ocean"...... "People will protect what they Love.." ..if people have no connection to Sharks, beyond JAWS and Sharknado, mass slaughter of sharks will be very low on their list of daily concerns, and may in fact, even be praised by them as it causing the ocean to be safer for them the next time they go swimming in the ocean!

Specials on public TV explaining that Sharks are important to the ecosystem may have been watched by YOU....but they are not watched by the masses...and the masses don't talk about saving and protecting sharks at cocktail parties.

On the other hand, the divers that have been on Abernethy Shark Trips, get to SEE and connect with Tiger sharks and Bull Sharks and gain a brand new perspective on what these creatures are like in the wild--on what sharks actually act like...how they will sometimes socialize with people ( like Emma with Jimmy), and how they can be seen doing things that force the diver to realize that these sharks have their own personalities---and that some will act smarter than many dogs.....that they are NOT the mindless, brainless killing machines that the Movie Jaws convinced the masses that sharks were.....and that allows fisherman to kill them and be proud of their accomplishment.

You might not appreciate the Shark Dive business....but it is the ONLY form of education so far, that has caused major perceptual changes in large groups of people----and it is the only solution that is having a major shift in government regulations to protect sharks. Tourism after all, is big money, and if you want Government to do the right thing, tieing the "right thing" to a much bigger government/tourism income, is a smart way to help the "right thing" happen !!!


[video=vimeo;22148242]http://vimeo.com/22148242[/video]

 

[boulderjohn]

SCUBAPINK,
Mike is spot on with this.....the "world"...the masses that create the present and future health of the planet, are totally fine believing that the SHARK is the monster in the movie Jaws.....The "Masses" are fine with long-lining and mass fishing of the sharks for fishing sport, or for asian delicacies. The masses have never thought much at all about sharks, beyond the horror they experienced when they watched the movie Jaws. And the masses do NOT have an interest in suddenly becoming ACTIVISTS that would lobby and demand an END TO SHARK FISHING.... As Jim Abernethy said in his movie "Sharks:This is your Ocean"...... "People will protect what they Love.." ..if people have no connection to Sharks, beyond JAWS and Sharknado, mass slaughter of sharks will be very low on their list of daily concerns, and may in fact, even be praised by them as it causing the ocean to be safer for them the next time they go swimming in the ocean!

A few years ago a story of the wanton killing of some bull sharks off the coast of Mexico started a SB thread that was predictable in its outrage, but the thread included a link to to discussion of the incident on a forum not related to scuba diving. The reaction was quite the opposite. The sharks got no love there. The comments were almost universally saying that sharks are horrible menaces that do no good, and we will all be better off when they have been eliminated from the oceans.

 

[The Chairman]

It's easy to malign people who think differently than you. I like to hunt, both spear fish and lobster. That doesn't make me a chest thumping idiot amped up on testosterone. It means that I enjoy hunting. This is a big ocean. Unless an activity harms the environment, we should allow it. There is no empirical evidence that shark feeding endangers divers significantly more than simply diving. To date, I think we only have one confirmed shark attack during a feed in all the years they've been having them. So, what's this really all about? A few people think that they should be able to tell everyone else how to live based on their fears and biases. It's not right. It's not even American.

 

[danvolker]

there was a great post on the science and ecology.....which is now missing, so I will re-post it...this is something any one interested in shark conservation should have watched.
[video=youtube_share;9iFl7BxbnXQ]http://youtu.be/9iFl7BxbnXQ[/video]

 

[Grouperdawg]

there was a great post on the science and ecology.....which is now missing, so I will re-post it...this is something any one interested in shark conservation should have watched.

A couple things, first off I would agree with you guys that Abernathy is probably one of the biggest shark conservationists out there, after all a good chunk of his business depends on sharks and being able to feed them : o

I disagree he is helping shark conservation with his operation, he may have an impact on the new divers that shark feed for the first time ( although it sounds like they are all pro photographers and best most experienced shark divers ever so maybe not that many newbies?).


But every time he has an accident he is perpetuating the "jaws" mentality referenced so many times and this is accident number three that received global attention. All the general public takes away from the news is yet another death on a shark feed, that's not helping sharks at all. Thats not convincing people sharks are generally placid and shy.


Dr Erich Ritter, also an experienced shark scientist trying to promote sharks as safe, feeds some bulls at walkers and gets bit, problem is its on video for discovery channel and now seen by millions. People watch that and go, don't want that to happen to me, no thx. Many of his peers (scientists) expected he would get bit eventually and believe he has done considerable harm the message they are trying to promote about sharks.


I have a friend that has the pics from a dive and he's not convincing anybody on how we should save sharks. Im sure you guys don't act this way, but its more of a chest pumping ego thing, look at how brave I was to swim with these sharks which only affirms the jaws thing. Ironic bc he's never even seen jaws, that was almost 40 years ago.


IMHO The controversy with shark feedings is that nobody really knows how it effects sharks behavior towards people in the long run. It's also a general principle you don't feed predators bc you associate people with food. People will be reluctant to think it won't apply to sharks especially with media coverage of people getting bit.

If you want to feed a shark in an aquarium nobody would care but these are in the wild so while some may strongly disagree, it's entirely possible they could be endangering others which would be considered irresponsible. We know bc of radio tags these sharks do not stay in the same place, they still migrate, so other divers can encounter these sharks in other places like the poster who said he encountered the shark in Belize; he thought it was fed locally bc it didn't have the traditional fear and shyness sharks were known to have in the past. Don't know, he could be right.


I don't get the photography thing, especially after hundreds of dives and assume tons of pictures . I would think it would be a lot more rewarding at this point to get a picture of a shark in its natural state versus the feedings?

Shark feedings are a multi million dollar business and will probably be around somewhere in the world forever.




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