Is it really worth the risk?

[pensacolaracer]

Nope it wasn't. But it's damn near paid for itself in helium costs alone... I won't even get into 100 and 50 percent costs.

Dr Lecter can surely confirm both the dives and costs.

In the past 15 months, I have done 72 dives to depths that I use a minimum of 50 percent helium, some times more. These are dives between 180 and 315 feet. For simplicity, I have not included dives from 100 to 179 where the helium is usually less than 50 percent.

Helium costs for the rebreather come out to about $1080 for these dives.

For open circuit, the helium alone comes out to $9360 bucks.

I will dare say that if I were to add in open circuit deco gas costs, I would be well paid back on my $7500 initial investment into the rebreather.

 

[rjack321]

Or you could use a sidemount RB... Problem solved

---------- Post added December 8th, 2014 at 12:04 PM ----------

better described as a bailout RB.

How does a sidemount rebreather change the fact that to do my intended dives on OC would require 700cf of OC gas and I would have to guess at the right mix? Doesn't matter what the rebreather is, hauling 700cf of OC gas anyplace without a donkey/sherpas is basically impossible and that's assuming all those cylinders actually fit in the cave...

 

[Dr. Lecter]

Nope it wasn't. But it's damn near paid for itself in helium costs alone... I won't even get into 100 and 50 percent costs.

Dr Lecter can surely confirm both the dives and costs.

In the past 15 months, I have done 72 dives to depths that I use a minimum of 50 percent helium, some times more. These are dives between 180 and 315 feet. For simplicity, I have not included dives from 100 to 179 where the helium is usually less than 50 percent.

Helium costs for the rebreather come out to about $1080 for these dives.

For open circuit, the helium alone comes out to $9360 bucks.

I will dare say that if I were to add in open circuit deco gas costs, I would be well paid back on my $7500 initial investment into the rebreather.

Chad's 100% right about the costs, at least here in Hawaii. I used to dive air to 240' and be happy about it, now I dive 10/50 in a mud puddle because CCR, and my gas costs are markedly lower buying O2 and trimix than they were on OC just buying air and deco blends. Yes, there's still sorb, cells, and spares, but there's no doubt in my mind that CCR -- if you're diving deep frequently and especially in more remote areas -- is more cost-effective.

Which is a totally different issue from safety, but is still important for those that want to dive a lot. Then again, I snagged my revo II for a measly $4500 (plus training and cells and spares and I'd prefer to stop thinking about this stuff now), and we have a dive buddy who grabbed his - in nicer shape than mine - for $3000. CCR can be done far more cost-effectively than is generally said.

 

[Robert Thompson]

Not to mention if you are feeling like you feel like you need more deco than planned you can add time in the midrange, and cns clock permiting drive up the PO2 a bit.

 

[Kevrumbo]

Nope it wasn't. But it's damn near paid for itself in helium costs alone... I won't even get into 100 and 50 percent costs.

Dr Lecter can surely confirm both the dives and costs.

In the past 15 months, I have done 72 dives to depths that I use a minimum of 50 percent helium, some times more. These are dives between 180 and 315 feet. For simplicity, I have not included dives from 100 to 179 where the helium is usually less than 50 percent.

Helium costs for the rebreather come out to about $1080 for these dives.

For open circuit, the helium alone comes out to $9360 bucks.

I will dare say that if I were to add in open circuit deco gas costs, I would be well paid back on my $7500 initial investment into the rebreather.

Chad's 100% right about the costs, at least here in Hawaii. I used to dive air to 240' and be happy about it, now I dive 10/50 in a mud puddle because CCR, and my gas costs are markedly lower buying O2 and trimix than they were on OC just buying air and deco blends. Yes, there's still sorb, cells, and spares, but there's no doubt in my mind that CCR -- if you're diving deep frequently and especially in more remote areas -- is more cost-effective.

Which is a totally different issue from safety, but is still important for those that want to dive a lot. Then again, I snagged my revo II for a measly $4500 (plus training and cells and spares and I'd prefer to stop thinking about this stuff now), and we have a dive buddy who grabbed his - in nicer shape than mine - for $3000. CCR can be done far more cost-effectively than is generally said.

How many dives would it take to recoup/amortize that huge initial outlay for a good CCR System with the training?

For reference, my Bikini Atoll Liveaboard (M/V Windward) open circuit gas costs for 17 dives over eight days including crew gratuity: $3.8k. (Helium $5.66/cuft, Oxygen $1.70/cuft). Excess baggage total fees charged by United Airlines (each way -each flight leg!): $1.2k. My X-scooter itself cost $400 as check-in luggage. Additional gas costs for the Truk Lagoon week add-on $1.1k.

I work in Southern California Aerospace Industry, 9 to 12 hours a day, sometimes all seven days of the week for nearly a month straight. If all goes well and units delivered on time, I take the rest of the Quarter off and blow all my Overtime earnings on overseas tropical Scuba trips to SE Asia & Oceania/Micronesia. I have two of the best CCR instructors in the world here in SoCal -Jeff Bozanic and Andrew Georgitsis- but don't have the time to dedicate for the training which they demand; I barely have enough free time to get in a mainland beach dive in Open Circuit. . .

My take is that I'd rather spend the $10k-$15k now for consecutive open circuit trips to Bikini & Truk and other Indo-Pacific WWII wreck sites, instead of blowing it all for a just year's worth of training on a new CCR system. . . And for the interim I'd rather deal with the Devil I do know well --Open Circuit-- than with the Devil I don't know at all --Rebreathers.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

For a serious tourist diver such as yourself, CCR is not a wise choice, Kev. And I don't mean to knock you with that, you do some fun dives in neat places. But as you say, you're not doing one or two big dives every week. When I get to the point I'm living somewhere I'm not doing that anymore either, I'll likely trade in the CCR too...no matter what dives I'm doing the few weeks a year I get out and hit it hard.

But don't kid yourself on costs: the $10k-$15k you're blowing per trip is enough to buy a solid unit and all courses through Mod 3. And you're not getting any closer to the experience needed to swap OC for a CCR on real dives by delaying the steep learning curve.

 

[danvolker]

Dan, let's nail down what you're talking about here. I don't think you'll find many people more cognizant of the limits and risks of diving a CCR as safely as reasonably possible, and I personally much prefer OC for its simplicity and ease of use while diving, but at some point the advantages are just too great to ignore.

Let's say we have a group of divers that go out one to two times every week and do a 2-4 hour long decompression dive in the 220'-330' range, here in Hawaii's easy-going waters. They're using 50%-60% helium in their mix, driving DPVs for miles along deep ledges, and spending anywhere from 20-60 minutes at depth depending on their feeling about how long they want to deco for and how many tanks they're willing to lug. Is it really a matter of "faith" to say that for this kind of thing, OC is both more hassle and more risk than CCR? Hell, given the amount of bottles necessary for reserve gas and such, CCR may be a less complex system overall.

I certainly don't claim you cannot do these dives on OC, but it doesn't seem clear to me that it would be safer, and it sure as Hell ain't easier.

Doc, in this example, I am in agreement. My issue is the gene pool.
There is the one of overall divers, that is a gene pool not suited to doing deco at all, or doing helium....this is the masses. The CCR would not be smart for them.

Then there is the very, very small gene pool of divers that evolve skills to tech levels, and do the dive type you just described. In this group, I would not jump into an argument about the comparative safety...and in fact I agree with you that at near 300 foot depths to 400, and with bottom times from 40 minutes to an hour, the OC needs become ridiculous with all the gas that needs to be carried....it just gets far beyond what OC is good for....In this mission type, I would be diving a rebreather.

The big BUT....Dive shops all over the US have decided that all of their wealthy divers NEED to get into rebreathers. I think this is the wrong gene pool for this

 

[boulderjohn]

The big BUT....Dive shops all over the US have decided that all of their wealthy divers NEED to get into rebreathers. I think this is the wrong gene pool for this

There was a recent thread on ScubaBoard that began with a former customer of a dive shop in California lodging a complaint. She had gone into the dive shop expressing an interest in learning to dive. The owner sat down with her and, over a couple of glasses of wine, convinced her that she would be best served if she bought all her gear ahead of time. She did. It didn't work out well for her. She only lasted a pool session or two and never got certified. The shop refused to take back any of the equipment she had purchased, because all of it was used in the pool sessions--including the rebreather.

 

[darushin]

Mr. Horn what is the goal here? Would you like to ban rebreathers all together? What caused you to seemingly hate them so much?

Just curious!!

He doesn't want them banned. He works for a company that sells an oxygen rebreather and a vaporware add on that is suppose to make his unit the greatest.

 

[danvolker]

There was a recent thread on ScubaBoard that began with a former customer of a dive shop in California lodging a complaint. She had gone into the dive shop expressing an interest in learning to dive. The owner sat down with her and, over a couple of glasses of wine, convinced her that she would be best served if she bought all her gear ahead of time. She did. It didn't work out well for her. She only lasted a pool session or two and never got certified. The shop refused to take back any of the equipment she had purchased, because all of it was used in the pool sessions--including the rebreather.

Holy crap!!!!!