Deep Stops Increases DCS

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The way it was described to me by US Navy hyperbaric physiologists, stops aren’t part of decompression algorithms that calculate bubble formation — which includes the original Haldane work at the beginning of the last century. There are no stops in the “ideal world” of a hyperbaric physiologist, only a continually declining ascent rate possibly interrupted by sleeping periods.

Stops are a nuisance imposed by the pesky practicalities of operating in the ocean. A second and somewhat independent set of algorithms looks at bubble formation for a slice in time to create stops based on an arbitrary fixed ascent rate like 30'/minute.

Stops are a game of continually under and over-shooting the ideal. You arrive at a stop faster than the “model” indicates you should and stay there a little longer. The squirrely part is when slower tissues are still outgassing while others start re-absorbing. Deep stops are just another way of biasing those compromises.
 
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Unfounded claim which appears to be contradicted by empirical studies by experts in the fields of decompression theory and physiology.
It's been hypothesized & conjectured before (Deep Stops) many years ago by Erik Baker (see link below). . .

The way it was described to me by US Navy hyperbaric physiologists, stops aren’t part of decompression algorithms that calculate bubble formation — which includes the original Haldane work at the beginning of the last century. There are no stops in the “ideal world” of a hyperbaric physiologist, only a continually declining ascent rate possibly interrupted by sleeping periods.

Stops are a nuisance imposed by the pesky practicalities of operating in the ocean. A second and somewhat independent set of algorithms looks at bubble formation for a slice in time to create stops based on an arbitrary fixed ascent rate like 30'/minute.

Stops are a game of continually under and over-shooting the ideal. You arrive at a stop faster than the “model” indicates you should and stay there a little longer. The squirrely part when slower tissues are still outgassing while others start re-absorbing. Deep stops are just another way of biasing those compromises.
Baker also considers this in his original article on Deep Stops:

http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=118570&d=1331862212
 
Of course Ratio Deco/Deep Stops is not supported by any scientific algorithm -just simply an amalgamation of all the best application of deco theories as they have evolved -from classical Haldane, Workman, Buhlmann; Baker's GF implementation, and bubble mechanics of present day VPM and RGBM. Period. (And you knew that Boulderjohn, since you took his online class which clearly states this point. . .)

And yes AJ, there is a Helium penalty in a Buhlmann profile versus Ratio Deco for the same depth and time parameter --just like I "schooled" y'all in this thread:

Post 131:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...ns/495553-what-ratio-deco-14.html#post7274174
Post: 140:
http://www.scubaboard.com/forums/ad...ns/495553-what-ratio-deco-14.html#post7274972

your "ratio deco" is made up. It could tell you anything and you'd call it the best.

Longer deco? It's better because it's more conservative.

Shorter deco? It's better because it gets you out of the water faster.

B. A. L. O. N. E. Y.
 
your "ratio deco" is made up. It could tell you anything and you'd call it the best.

Longer deco? It's better because it's more conservative.

Shorter deco? It's better because it gets you out of the water faster.

B. A. L. O. N. E. Y.
Yeah sure AJ, whatever you say : Made it all up & pulled it out from between my Ischial Tuberosities -just for you.:flush:
 
Of course Ratio Deco/Deep Stops is not supported by any scientific algorithm -just simply an amalgamation of all the best application of deco theories as they have evolved -from classical Haldane, Workman, Buhlmann; Baker's GF implementation, and bubble mechanics of present day VPM and RGBM. Period. (And you knew that Boulderjohn, since you took his online class which clearly states this point. . .)
Through simple algebra anybody can verify that the Combined Gas Law is truly an amalgamation of Gay-Lussac, Boyle, and Charles. Having AG or Kevrumbo proclaim RD an amalgamation is simply not proof enough.

In this post I asked why it would seem that VPM (not just Buhlmann GF) is also unfairly penalizing for using helium: While on VPM, if I start stops as deep as RD starts calling for, I will have to extend shallow stops longer than what RD says. And yes, the stock answer is that helium has lower solubility and higher diffusivity than nitrogen, but nobody ever expands this qualitative statement into the realm of the quantitative.

Why is the quantitative important? Because both buhlmann gf and vpm will yield lower deco times for any given dive when helium is present. This points to the fact that both models do take into account some deco advantages of helium. Qualitatively they are no different than RD in this aspect. The difference is quantitative. Explain it, please, because I've never seen anybody capable of explaining it. Is it even possible to explain it quantitatively?

RD proponents cite bubble mechanics and dual phase models as the reason for starting stops so deep without adding extra time to shallow stops. They cite Yount and Wienke as their basis. Then why is it that RD won't comply with Yount's VPM?

Now we see NEDU studies that seem to go counter to starting stops as deep as VPM calls for without adding extra time to shallow stops. Some people seem to be backing away from vpm level deep stops. RD is even more aggressive than vpm in this regard, unexplainably so. And yet there is still no shortage of proclamations that it is the superior deco strategy. All this while providing no shred of quantitative or statistical evidence.
 
From Bruce Wienke (abridged from article "RGBM: A Simplified Overview and Update"):

Though Deep Stops are regarded as a major development in diving, the first experiments were more trial-and-error than scientific in nature. Just like so many other important developments in the real world. Underlying science with mechanistics would follow in the late 80s and 90s, albeit with considerable flack from the "experts" of the time. . .

. . .Individuals, particularly in the cave diving community, toyed with decompression regimens in hopes of minimizing their decompression time. The cave exploration Woodville Karst Plain Project (WKPP), mapping subsurface topographies in Florida, pioneered deep stop technology, establishing many rule-of-thumb protocols to be imposed on conventional tables. Irvine and Jablonski stand at the forefront here, successfully conducting 6 hour dives at 280 ft in the Wakulla cave complex with deep stop decompression times of 12 hours versus traditional Haldane hang times of 20 hours. Also, the horizontal penetrations of 19,000 ft are world records (Guinness). . . Spectacular is a gross understatement. Certainly such contributions to diving science and spin-off model validation parallel Haldane a hundred years ago.

WKPP initially found that common decompression assumptions subjected divers to extremely long decompression obligations, and ones that, regardless of their length, were inefficient. Divers also felt badly upon surfacing from extended deco dives. Operationally (many dives over many years), WKPP divers found that the insertion of deep stops permitted shortening of shallower stops with an overall reduction in total decompression time. The decompression schedule was more effective, with effectiveness represented by subjective diver health and sense of well being.

But even before these deep stop protocols emerged, utilitarian diving practices among diving fisherman and pearl gatherers suggested traditional staging was in need of rethinking. And early deco models, such as the so-called thermodynamic model of Hills, suggested why and how. Deep stops likely evolved from cognizance of both by tech divers. . .

Pearling fleets, operating in the deep tidal waters off northern Australia, employed Okinawan divers who regularly journeyed to depths of 300 ft for as long as one hour, two times a day, six days per week, and ten months out of the year. Driven by economics, and not science, these divers developed optimized decompression schedules empirically. As reported by Le Messurier and Hills, deeper decompression stops, but shorter decompression times than required by Haldane theory, were characteristics of their profiles (Note: The current NEDU Study Conclusion implies significant DCS incidence for these profiles). Such protocols are entirely consistent with minimizing bubble growth and the excitation of nuclei through the application of increased pressure, as are shallow safety stops and slow ascent rates. With higher incidence of surface decompression sickness, as expected, the Australians devised a simple, but very effective, in-water recompression procedure. The stricken diver is taken back down to 30 ft on oxygen for roughly 30 minutes in mild cases, or 60 minutes in severe cases. Increased pressures help to constrict bubbles, while breathing pure oxygen maximizes inert gas washout (elimination). Recompression time scales are consistent with bubble dissolution experiments.

Similar schedules and procedures have evolved in Hawaii, among diving fishermen, according to Farm and Hayashi. Harvesting the oceans for food and profit, Hawaiian divers make between 8 and 12 dives a day to depths beyond 350 ft. Profit incentives induce divers to take risks relative to bottom time in conventional tables. Repetitive dives are usually necessary to net a school of fish. Deep stops and shorter decompression times are characteristics of their profiles (-Again the NEDU Conclusion shows high DCS incidence). In step with bubble and nucleation theory, these divers make their deep dive first, followed by shallower excursions. A typical series might start with a dive to 220 ft, followed by 2 dives to 120 ft, and culminate in 3 or 4 more excursions to less than 60 ft. Often, little or no surface intervals are clocked between dives. Such types of profiles literally clobber conventional tables, but, with proper reckoning of bubble and phase mechanics, acquire some credibility. With ascending profiles and suitable application of pressure, gas seed excitation and bubble growth are likely constrained within the body's capacity to eliminate free and dissolved gas phases. In a broad sense, the final shallow dives have been tagged as prolonged safety stops, and the effectiveness of these procedures has been substantiated "in vivo" (dogs) by Kunkle and Beckman. In-water recompression procedures, similar to the Australian regimens, complement Hawaiian diving practices for all the same reasons. So deep stops work and are established. . .

The earliest prescriptions for deep stops were imbedded in conventional tables. Something like this was employed, trial and error, and this one is attributed to Pyle, an underwater fish collector in Hawaii:

-calculate your decompression schedule from tables, meters, or software;

-half the distance to the first deco stop and stay there a minute or two;

-recompute your decompression schedule with time at the deep stop included as way time (software), or bottom time (tables);

-repeat procedure until within some 10 -30 ft of the first deco stop;

-and then go for it.

Within conventional tables, such procedure was somewhat arbitrary, and usually always ended up with a lot of hang time in the shallow zone. Such is to be expected within dissolved gas deco frameworks. So, deep stop pioneers started shaving shallow deco time off their schedules. And jumped back into the water, picking up the trial and error testing where it left off.

Seasoned tech divers all had their own recipes for this process. And sure, what works works in the diving world. What doesn't is usually trashed.


Concurrently, full up dual phase models, spawned by the inadequacies and shortcomings of conventional tables, emerged on the diving scene. Not only did deep stops evolve self consistently in these models, but dive and personal computers put deco scheduling with these new models in the hands of real divers. And real on the scene analysis and feedback tuned arbitrary, trial and error, and theoretical schedules to each other.

One thing about these bubble models, as they are collectively referenced, that is common to all of them is deeper stops, shorter decompression times in the shallow zone, and shorter overall deco times. And they all couple dissolved gases to bubbles, not focusing just on bubbles or dissolved gas. . .

So let's consider some recent tests, and see how they relate to deep stops. Analysis of more than 16,000 actual dives by Diver's Alert Network (DAN), prompted Bennett to suggest that decompression injuries are likely due to ascending too quickly. He found that the introduction of deep stops, without changing the ascent rate, reduced high bubble grades to near zero, from 30.5% without deep stops. He concluded that a deep stop at half the dive depth should reduce the critical fast gas tensions and lower the DCI incidence rate.

Marroni concluded studies with DAN's European sample with much the same thought. Although he found that ascent speed itself did not reduce bubble formation, he suggested that a slowing down in the deeper phases of the dive (deep stops) should reduce bubble formation. He will be conducting further tests along those lines.

Brubakk and Wienke found that longer decompression times are not always better when it comes to bubble formation in pigs. They found more bubbling in chamber tests when pigs were exposed to longer but shallower decompression profiles, where staged shallow decompression stops produced more bubbles than slower (deeper) linear ascents. Model correlations and calculations using the reduced gradient bubble model suggest the same.

Cope studied 12 volunteer divers performing conventional (Haldane tables) dives with and without deep stops. His results are not available yet but should be very interesting.

The Bottom Line

To most of us in the technical and recreational diving worlds, the bottom line is simple. Deep stop technology has developed successfully over the past 15 years or so. Tried and tested in the field, now some in the laboratory, deep stops are backed up by diver success, confidence, theoretical and experimental model underpinnings, and general acceptance by seasoned professionals.

Amen.

And dive on.

http://www.marinventure.ca/down/30065.pdf
 
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"Seasoned tech divers all had their own recipes for this process. And sure, what works works in the diving world. What doesn't is usually trashed."

We know. Hence the willingness to make changes.
 
1. What is the basis for utd rd dictating deeper stops than most out there? I've always gotten a broad stroke answer that lacks any detail. The answer goes somewhat along the lines that it is to control bubble formation and growth. Then they go ahead and mention Wienke's and Yount's (vpm) work on bubble models as backup. Yet utd rd ends up having deeper stops than vpm and nobody can tell me why.

You say you're based on Yount yet your results don't comply with Yount. I know both Yount and Wienke have a vastly more robust scientifically analytical work behind their models than utd. So what is the basis for utd to claim superiority over them? The previously quoted utd journal has an entire section about the "the science of ratio deco". I see no evidence of the scientific method used to produce rd anywhere in that section.

2. Using vpm, if I do go ahead and start the stops as deep as utd rd dictates, I will have to do a few more mins of shallow stops than utd dictates. This is the "fundamental disadvantage" of buhlmann gf-- "unfairly" penalizing helium. But I am not using buhlmann gf. This is vpm. Why? Again, a detailess broad stroke answer. Helium is not soluble therefore you can ignore helium. Great! let's use heliox without any nitrogen and ignore shallow stops altogether.

With regards to the "deeper Deep Stops" of Ratio Deco on standard high Helium mixes, my qualitative take on this is due to Helium's quantitative high diffusivity -and potential affinity for diffusing into any micro-nuclei/bubble seeds- which is why you want to keep these micro bubbles small with high bubble skin surface tension, and kept there by higher ambient pressure of the deeper Deep Stop.


From Bruce Wienke, Technical Diving in Depth, Reduced Gradient Bubble Model (RGBM) In Depth:

Helium NDLs are actually shorter than nitrogen for shallow exposures . . . Reasons for this stem from kinetic versus solubility properties of helium and nitrogen, and go away as exposures extend beyond 150 fsw, and times extend beyond 40 min or so. . . The size of bubbles formed with various inert gases depends upon the amount of gas dissolved, and hence the solubilities. Higher gas solubilities promote bigger bubbles.

Helium ingasses and outgasses 2.7 times faster than nitrogen, but nitrogen is 1.5 to 3.3 times more soluble in body aqueous and lipid tissue than helium. For short exposures (bounce and shallow), the faster diffusion rate of helium is more important in gas buildup than solubility, and shorter NDLs than nitrogen result. For long bottom times (deco and extended range), the lesser solubility of helium is a dominant factor in gas buildup, and helium outperforms nitrogen for staging. Thus, deep implies helium bottom and stage gas. Said another way, transient diving favors nitrogen while steady state diving favors helium as a breathing gas.

 
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Kevrumbo, thank you for sharing the article in post #36. Quite interesting and compelling. The link does not mention the date it was written. Do you know if this article was written before or after the NEDU study?
 
Kevrumbo, thank you for sharing the article in post #36. Quite interesting and compelling. The link does not mention the date it was written. Do you know if this article was written before or after the NEDU study?

According to the document properties, it is from March 2005.
The NEDU publication is 2011, with funding shown from 2005-2011.
But note the first pages of the NEDU report:
"The investigators are grateful to the following individuals who reviewed the design of this study by participating in the Gas Content Versus Bubble Volume Models Workshop, held 12–13 May 2004 at the Hyatt Regency Baltimore, Baltimore, MD: (any names and then) Dr. Bruce R. Wienke Los Alamos National Laboratory"

Interesting...
 
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