When is it okay to exceeding training limits?

[Lorenzoid]

You might look into NC dive ops for the Deep course.

 

[tursiops]

All good thoughts. But I have to LOL, since your SDI instructor is enhancing the class to get closer to the PADI class. Although.....

And, yes, I have looked at the PADI Deep course and see that it requires 4 dives. But, the 4th dive is not required to go especially deep, and I don't recall that there were any particular skills to perform during that dive, other than planning it and executing it.

Don't minimize the importance of the planning and executing......that is what diving deep is all about. Otherwise, you are just following someone around in a "trust me" mode.

 

[stuartv]

All good thoughts. But I have to LOL, since your SDI instructor is enhancing the class to get closer to the PADI class. Although.....



Don't minimize the importance of the planning and executing......that is what diving deep is all about. Otherwise, you are just following someone around in a "trust me" mode.

Understood. I didn't mean to minimize the importance. Planning seems to be the biggest opportunity for learning in the Deep course. And my point was simply that by the time of the 4th PADI dive, well, I would have expected to fully understand the planning part after the classroom and have practiced it sufficiently after 2 or 3 dives. So, I was somewhat minimizing the importance of a 4th dive, I suppose. At least, it's importance to ME.

 

[boulderjohn]

That's hardly the case, as their motivations are not necessarily aligned with the best interests of thinking divers.

You must have learned that when they consulted with you on the issue. Otherwise, how would you know?

it's a good thing people in other professions don't care at all about getting paid and always create company policies that are 100% for the benefit of the client. Think what it would be like if people in your profession (attorney) were not the totally selfless individuals we all know them to be. It's a real shame that scuba industry has employees who are interested in putting food on the table and paying the rent--those greedy SOBs. Many of them are even making minimum wage.

 

[RJP]

I don't have any problem at all with people starting a business for the purpose of making money.

That's good, because "making money" is the main purpose of a starting a business.

I HOPE SDI is making money... because so far I feel like I'm getting the same thing from them that I could get from PADI, and it's a lot cheaper, so I want SDI to continue to be around.

All you get from either is a manual and a card... everything else comes from your instructor.

 

[stuartv]

You might look into NC dive ops for the Deep course.

I have been! This weekend is a 3 day weekend and my g/f is leaving on Saturday for a week of work out of town. I started thinking about a road trip to NC this weekend just to go diving - not even a class. But, I checked water temps and it looks like around 50 degrees. I think I would be okay in that with the gear I have - other than picking up a hooded vest this week. But, I decided it would be too much time and money invested to go do it just to find out that I was wrong and it was too cold and I couldn't do the dives I paid for. So, I think I'm just going to cool my jets and be patient. If I don't get it done sooner, I may try to set it up to do a Deep course when I'm in Hawaii in March.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 03:58 PM ----------

That's good, because "making money" is the main purpose of a starting a business.

I know. I started my first company in 1999 and have worked for myself ever since.

All you get from either is a manual and a card... everything else comes from your instructor.

I know. And my instructor is (or has been, so far) the same, either way. He's certified with both. But, getting the SDI manual and card was $50 less than doing the same course and getting the PADI manual and card. Like I said, I'm getting the same thing from SDI for less than getting it from PADI.

---------- Post added January 13th, 2015 at 04:06 PM ----------

I can't speak for the SDI courses, but just so that you are aware, and to be fair, PADI does not set the price for courses.

For the Deep Diver course PADI charges the Instructor only for the Deep Diver Manual and the cost for the registering the Certification after completion of the course. That is it.

Well, I certainly don't know what either agency charges the instructors. I just know that the shop I did OW with offers PADI and SDI and the OW course was $50 cheaper if I took an SDI card at the end.

Also, before I signed up with this particular shop, I looked at other shops and I looked at doing the eLearning course, then just going to a shop for a review and the pool and OW sessions. In all cases, PADI was more expensive than SDI and it seemed like the extra cost for PADI was even higher if the student elected to do the online course, instead of a normal classroom session for the course.

It's a minor thing, but I also like that SDI is setup where my shop can enter new certifications and then print me out my new C card on the spot, where, with PADI, they have to enter a new certification and then PADI prints and mails the C card to the student.

It seems like PADI just costs more for the same things. I have been told that PADI's Marketing budget is bigger than SDI's ENTIRE budget. If that's true, it would make sense that they would have to charge more for the same things, just to cover their extra overhead.

Anyway.... I definitely don't want to turn this into a PADI vs SDI thread. I just wanted to make the point that even though PADI may not directly set the price of a course, they clearly set it indirectly by virtue of how much they charge the instructor for the course materials. If PADI charges $50 more for the book and registration fees, then I would expect the course to cost $50 more. I certainly would NOT expect the instructor to eat that extra $50.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

You must have learned that when they consulted with you on the issue. Otherwise, how would you know?

it's a good thing people in other professions don't care at all about getting paid and always create company policies that are 100% for the benefit of the client. Think what it would be like if people in your profession (attorney) were not the totally selfless individuals we all know them to be. It's a real shame that scuba industry has employees who are interested in putting food on the table and paying the rent--those greedy SOBs. Many of them are even making minimum wage.

Sigh - if it helps some of the sand fall out of your lower parts, I'll say that their extrinsic motivations are not necessarily aligned; I disclaim knowledge of their intrinsic motivations, or anything else that goes on in their collective heads. Happy now?

As I see it, the major difference between mass-market dive training agencies and other professions (whether the agencies, as opposed to the instructors, are professionals or not is also questionable) is that other professions don't create a training regimen and then try very hard to convince all involved in a given activity that their training certifications are, in fact, more like required licenses for such activity.

As an attorney, as least of the kind I am, I tend not to tell clients that using my services - or any legal services - is something they really need to do if they're going to do business at all. Rather, some external force (a plaintiff filing a complaint, some pesky criminal authority or regulatory agency investigating them) tends to convince them of that fact and then they come to us for assistance.

I suppose the diving analogue would be if SCUBA agencies, rather than pushing an 'if someone hasn't trained you to dive off a boat, maybe you shouldn't be diving off a boat' mentality for almost any activity one could conduct underwater, simply hung out shingles and said 'if you want to go diving, come talk to us and we'll see what training we'd advise you take from us before doing the dives you'd like to do...and we'll justify our advice by explaining your options and our basis for recommending one option over the rest."

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

All you get from either is a manual and a card... everything else comes from your instructor.

Slightly off topic maybe - so it must be more than a manual and card - standards as well must play a role from the agency?

How much "freedom / leeway" are instructors allowed? Very little or quite a bit if you don't end up harming someone?

 

[Octopusprime]

My understanding is that it is a recommended limit?

I know there's no Scuba Police. So, we all have to police ourselves, right?

I really just want to know if there is any standard from any agency on exceeding limits. With instructor, during formal class only?

I like to know what the official recommendations are, so that I can decide on my own if, when and how I ignore them. Which answer is that I generally just don't.

It it is always ok to dive with an instructor, in a class or not. They are responsible and should judge your skills and abilities. Instructor can take multiple non certified divers. A DM under the supervision of an instructor is ok to... What does under the supervision mean? As an example you may be doing Advanced open water and the DM may take you on a dive but usually only one or two non certified divers...

that being said. Someone mentioned gradually expand your limit. I would say a student with 5 ow dives should not go to 60 ft with a buddy of same experiance... Be comfortable at 40' the 50' then 60' or dive with someone more experienced.

As as far as destinations and charters some don't care others you will pay get on boat then they don't let you dive because your not deep qualified... There goes your day and money... Get your advanced open water right away...

Every dive is a training dive with or with out an instructor..,

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

As as far as destinations and charters some don't care others you will pay get on boat then they don't let you dive because your not deep qualified... There goes your day and money...

Never heard of a boat checking your certs on the boat on the way to a site - before you leave yes - on the dock maybe - never on the boat... have you run into this or are you saying this as an exaggeration to make a point?