NACD Instructor standards violation

[boulderjohn]

Tec Deep Diver Standards, page 2-20.

Cave Environment Training Option
You may conduct the DSAT Tec Diver course in cave diving environments if
the following conditions are also met.
Instructor Requirements
1. The instructor must be certified as a DSAT Tec Deep Instructor.
2. The instructor must have a qualifying full cave instructor certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your
PADI Office for more information about qualifying certifications and
organizations.)
3. The instructor must have made at least 20 decompression dives in
cave environments.
Certified Assistant Requirements
1. The individual must meet the certified assistant requirements.
2. The individual must have a qualifying full cave diver certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your PADI Office
for more information about qualifying certifications and organizations.)
Student Requirements
1. The student must meet all other prerequisites and requirements for
the Tec Diver course (Tec 40, 45 or 50) being conducted.
2. The student must have a qualifying full cave diver certification from
a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your PADI Office
for more information about qualifying certifications and organizations).
3. The student must have at least 60 cave dives logged, not including
any cave training dives.
Environment Requirements
Cave environments used for the course must have sufficient open water for all
required course skills. This includes lift bag/DSMB deployment, neutrally buoyant
gas shutdowns, neutrally buoyant deco stops without bottom contact, failed primary
BCD scenarios, etc. This is defined as having sufficient:
• depth and breadth for conducting all deco stops required by the
specific dive without contact with the bottom or walls.
• space for teams to conduct drift decompression (neutrally buoyant)
positioned as they would in open ocean or other large open water body.
• surface area in water in which it is too deep to stand to meet the
requirements for teams to float at the surface.
1. The dives must be within the depth limits stipulated for each
dive. At no time shall the depth exceed 40 metres/130 feet within the
overhead environment. The exception is Tec 50 Training Dive Four
if the trimix option is used.

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

2. The instructor must have a qualifying full cave instructor certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your
PADI Office for more information about qualifying certifications and
organizations.)

 

[cerich]

Tec Deep Diver Standards, page 2-20.

Cave Environment Training Option
You may conduct the DSAT Tec Diver course in cave diving environments if
the following conditions are also met.
Instructor Requirements
1. The instructor must be certified as a DSAT Tec Deep Instructor.
2. The instructor must have a qualifying full cave instructor certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your
PADI Office for more information about qualifying certifications and
organizations.)
3. The instructor must have made at least 20 decompression dives in
cave environments.
Certified Assistant Requirements
1. The individual must meet the certified assistant requirements.
2. The individual must have a qualifying full cave diver certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your PADI Office
for more information about qualifying certifications and organizations.)
Student Requirements
1. The student must meet all other prerequisites and requirements for
the Tec Diver course (Tec 40, 45 or 50) being conducted.
2. The student must have a qualifying full cave diver certification from
a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your PADI Office
for more information about qualifying certifications and organizations).
3. The student must have at least 60 cave dives logged, not including
any cave training dives.
Environment Requirements
Cave environments used for the course must have sufficient open water for all
required course skills. This includes lift bag/DSMB deployment, neutrally buoyant
gas shutdowns, neutrally buoyant deco stops without bottom contact, failed primary
BCD scenarios, etc. This is defined as having sufficient:
• depth and breadth for conducting all deco stops required by the
specific dive without contact with the bottom or walls.
• space for teams to conduct drift decompression (neutrally buoyant)
positioned as they would in open ocean or other large open water body.
• surface area in water in which it is too deep to stand to meet the
requirements for teams to float at the surface.
1. The dives must be within the depth limits stipulated for each
dive. At no time shall the depth exceed 40 metres/130 feet within the
overhead environment. The exception is Tec 50 Training Dive Four
if the trimix option is used.

OK, from what I can tell the student and the instructor must also both be full cave certified

The tec Diver 50 course is not using helium, it's basically a Advanced Nitrox/Deco class.

Deco is covered in Full cave.

The PADI class does teach stage management, so fundamentally doing this in context of cave diving it's a stage deco class.

Did I get that correct?

 

[GDI]

As Jim pointed out the Instructor must be a Full Cave Instructor with certification from a qualifying agency. (Tec Trimix Diver Instructor Manual page 2-14 Cave Environment Training Option, Instructor Requirements sub-para 2)

The instructor shall be a cave instructor and the student shall have a full cave diver cert. I have talked to PADI on this very topic, their assumption is that the student and individuals being full cave certified should know and understand the risks specific to cave diving. Additionally the belief is that divers training at this level usually are not as problematic as say a newer diver coming off of a AOW Deep Diver Cert .

This (IMO) is a concern since PADI does not have a "Full" Cave course in their current listings. In order to teach this program in the cave environment, the instructor (IMO) might cross agencies and thus standards. The instructor's liability insurance would have to permit this and if/when/should something happen, what agency would the instructor be liable under. It is a PADI class but PADI doesn't have a cave class.
If the instructor demonstrates a skill, any skill that is normally used in the cave environment but not typical of the open water environment, Is he not teaching a cave skill thus a cave class in whole or in part?

Example: A cave Instructor having NACD/NSS-CDS Instructor status and a PADI Tec REC Trimix Instructor rating uses this allowance and suggests or provides guidance specific to the cave environment to the student, he maybe considered outside the realm of this PADI course. if s/he doesn't hold equivalent cave level cert then s/he may be teaching outside of the cave agency's standards. Possible Double Jeopardy?

Which Agency's Standards are Predominate? I Acknowledge the fact that all open water skills as directed by PADI Tec Rec standards must still be performed in the open water zone, as per their standards and course outline.

My advice to any instructor holding these levels, is they should consult a lawyer and verify with their insurance company what their coverage would be. To meet this allowance a instructor is (IMO) crossing respective agency guidelines and standards.

I on behalf of the NACD have been in discussion with PADI directly regarding this and a few other issues. I simply advise instructors to be careful of this situation.

As a note the TC of the NACD is looking to bring Trimix into the course listings of the NACD. We are still working on the RB program and will look to also introduce a cave specific AN/Deco procedures program.

I plan to keep the NACD TC busy. To Date a new TD has yet to be appointed. We are interviewing people and will make a selection soon. All I can tell you is Larry Green will not be the next TD. A New TC is being established.

Who is on the TC some of you have asked:

Martin Robinson- Advisor - UK
Steve Lewis- Advisor- Canada
Igor Vrhovec- Advisor - International
Larry Green - Advisor - USA


Jill Heinerth - Advisor as available

We are hoping to get Brian Kakuk, Dan Paterson and a Mexican representative to round it out

Tec Deep Diver Standards, page 2-20.

Cave Environment Training Option
You may conduct the DSAT Tec Diver course in cave diving environments if
the following conditions are also met.
Instructor Requirements
1. The instructor must be certified as a DSAT Tec Deep Instructor.
2. The instructor must have a qualifying full cave instructor certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your
PADI Office for more information about qualifying certifications and
organizations.)
3. The instructor must have made at least 20 decompression dives in
cave environments.
Certified Assistant Requirements
1. The individual must meet the certified assistant requirements.
2. The individual must have a qualifying full cave diver certification
from a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your PADI Office
for more information about qualifying certifications and organizations.)
Student Requirements
1. The student must meet all other prerequisites and requirements for
the Tec Diver course (Tec 40, 45 or 50) being conducted.
2. The student must have a qualifying full cave diver certification from
a qualifying cave diver training organization. (See your PADI Office
for more information about qualifying certifications and organizations).
3. The student must have at least 60 cave dives logged, not including
any cave training dives.
Environment Requirements
Cave environments used for the course must have sufficient open water for all
required course skills. This includes lift bag/DSMB deployment, neutrally buoyant
gas shutdowns, neutrally buoyant deco stops without bottom contact, failed primary
BCD scenarios, etc. This is defined as having sufficient:
• depth and breadth for conducting all deco stops required by the
specific dive without contact with the bottom or walls.
• space for teams to conduct drift decompression (neutrally buoyant)
positioned as they would in open ocean or other large open water body.
• surface area in water in which it is too deep to stand to meet the
requirements for teams to float at the surface.
1. The dives must be within the depth limits stipulated for each
dive. At no time shall the depth exceed 40 metres/130 feet within the
overhead environment. The exception is Tec 50 Training Dive Four
if the trimix option is used.

 

[cerich]

As Jim pointed out the Instructor must be a Full Cave Instructor with certification from a qualifying agency. (Tec Trimix Diver Instructor Manual page 2-14 Cave Environment Training Option, Instructor Requirements sub-para 2)

The instructor shall be a cave instructor and the student shall have a full cave diver cert. I have talked to PADI on this very topic, their assumption is that the student and individuals being full cave certified should know and understand the risks specific to cave diving. Additionally the belief is that divers training at this level usually are not as problematic as say a newer diver coming off of a AOW Deep Diver Cert .

This (IMO) is a concern since PADI does not have a "Full" Cave course in their current listings. In order to teach this program in the cave environment, the instructor (IMO) might cross agencies and thus standards. The instructor's liability insurance would have to permit this and if/when/should something happen, what agency would the instructor be liable under. It is a PADI class but PADI doesn't have a cave class.
If the instructor demonstrates a skill, any skill that is normally used in the cave environment but not typical of the open water environment, Is he not teaching a cave skill thus a cave class in whole or in part?

Example: A cave Instructor having NACD/NSS-CDS Instructor status and a PADI Tec REC Trimix Instructor rating uses this allowance and suggests or provides guidance specific to the cave environment to the student, he maybe considered outside the realm of this PADI course. if s/he doesn't hold equivalent cave level cert then s/he may be teaching outside of the cave agency's standards. Possible Double Jeopardy?

Which Agency's Standards are Predominate? I Acknowledge the fact that all open water skills as directed by PADI Tec Rec standards must still be performed in the open water zone, as per their standards and course outline.

My advice to any instructor holding these levels, is they should consult a lawyer and verify with their insurance company what their coverage would be. To meet this allowance a instructor is (IMO) crossing respective agency guidelines and standards.

I on behalf of the NACD have been in discussion with PADI directly regarding this and a few other issues. I simply advise instructors to be careful of this situation.

As a note the TC of the NACD is looking to bring Trimix into the course listings of the NACD. We are still working on the RB program and will look to also introduce a cave specific AN/Deco procedures program.

I plan to keep the NACD TC busy. To Date a new TD has yet to be appointed. We are interviewing people and will make a selection soon. All I can tell you is Larry Green will not be the next TD. A New TC is being established.

Who is on the TC some of you have asked:

Martin Robinson- Advisor - UK
Steve Lewis- Advisor- Canada
Igor Vrhovec- Advisor - International
Larry Green - Advisor - USA


Jill Heinerth - Advisor as available

We are hoping to get Brian Kakuk, Dan Paterson and a Mexican representative to round it out

Logic should dictate that if taking PADI/DSAT Tec 50 with a PADI Instructor and the instructor, student meet the pre reqs it is in full (like the pun) a PADI course.

Now if the instructor is a multi agency instructor and is giving out multiple cards from multiple agencies then this can obviously become a REAL legal problem for all involved in the event of an accident.

I would say that instructors need to start giving (myself included) more thought when we issue cards from multiple agencies when teaching.

I would go further and caution instructors that are teaching programs for other agencies than from that which they purchased insurance thru. They need to be 100% certain and in have in writing that the course(s) they are teaching are in fact covered by insurance.

There are agencies that do not offer insurance and assume that because you have insurance thru another agency your insurance will protect you (instructor) and them (agency that doesn't offer insurance). That is one heck of a bet.

 

[BabyDuck]

ok, wait a sec.

i did an/dp as an intro diver, before i did app/full. i did a dive in lower orange grove as part of that, with a former nacd president. (the plan was to go to the gold line, but we were slower than we thought and turned on time before we got out of the corkscrew.) we did another to a bit past the bedding plane in hendley's.

are y'all saying that was a standards violation? because i'd venture that lots and lots of standards violations happen every year if that's a 'yes'.

 

[tbone1004]

I would say yes, but I'm not an expert. Even if you were mix certified or "deep air" from PSAI, you'd be diving above full cave training limits, it becomes very interesting when diving with instructors because while you could have done that dive with Larry and no one would be doing anything more than the usual "you probably shouldn't be doing that", but when you're with an instructor it becomes very cloudy.... May even have a chance of meatballs

 

[GDI]

ok, wait a sec.

i did an/dp as an intro diver, before i did app/full. i did a dive in lower orange grove as part of that, with a former nacd president. (the plan was to go to the gold line, but we were slower than we thought and turned on time before we got out of the corkscrew.) we did another to a bit past the bedding plane in hendley's.

are y'all saying that was a standards violation? because i'd venture that lots and lots of standards violations happen every year if that's a 'yes'.

You need be careful in making that statement. Multiple agency training can be a problem in litigation. but not necessarily

However assume the situation: If the agency has say a cave class (example TDI) and your AN/Deco is of the same agency (example TDI again) and the class is being taught under that agencies standards then this is not a (possibly) standards violation . Remember a agency like TDI doesn't have App Cave But they can add dives to the full cave class (min is 4) and if they stay within the depth limits of the governing environment then it should not be a standards violation. At the end of all training if the instructor issues two agencies c-Cards and provided no depth limits (as example full cave at 130 ft) have been broken then again this may not be a violation, as long as both standards of both agencies have been met. Complicated ? Could be

 

[karstdvr]

You need be careful in making that statement. Multiple agency training can be a problem in litigation. but not necessarily

However assume the situation: If the agency has say a cave class (example TDI) and your AN/Deco is of the same agency (example TDI again) and the class is being taught under that agencies standards then this is not a (possibly) standards violation . Remember a agency like TDI doesn't have App Cave But they can add dives to the full cave class (min is 4) and if they stay within the depth limits of the governing environment then it should not be a standards violation. At the end of all training if the instructor issues two agencies c-Cards and provided no depth limits (as example full cave at 130 ft) have been broken then again this may not be a violation, as long as both standards of both agencies have been met. Complicated ? Could be

I am not an instructor, won't pretend to be, and don't know all the intricacies of all the different agencies that someone can wander their maze. But, an intro diver being taken to Lower Orange grove (assuming the deeper section where the line starts), and Hendleys Castle is just wrong, if not from a standards perspective,then an ethical level. A person traversing these routes has to go through a couple restrictions, which from my experience side by side movement is no longer possible. We had the incident in 2005 with the cavern diver being taken to Hendleys for a class, and the end result was a fatality. A better paradigm should be the diver get full cave certified, get some experience, preferably doing a dive at P3 and upper OG with a visit to the lower OG chamber, and then part of the AN/DP class be taken to the aforementioned sites. Would this account for better diver safety?

 

[Capt Jim Wyatt]

, an intro diver being taken to Lower Orange grove (assuming the deeper section where the line starts), and Hendleys Castle is just wrong, if not from a standards perspective,then an ethical level.

I agree 100%.