Shouldn't DSMB be required as part of training?

[boulderjohn]

There is an educational concept that contrasts "just in case" education with "just in time" education. In the first, you teach everything you can think of "just in case" the diver runs into the need for it sometime in the future. In the other, you decide what really needs to be learned at that time and then focus your instruction on it. If the learner's situation evolves over time in such a way that other learning is needed, then the diver should have time to learn it "just in time" to use it. If you spend too much time teaching what students don't need to know at the moment, you interfere with their ability to learn what they really need to know right away. When they finally get around to needing that information, they will probably have forgotten it.

Basic dive education mentions things like diving at altitude and diving with tidal conditions, but it does not provide thorough instruction in those areas. Even though I lived in Colorado from the time I learned to dive, it was 5 years before I did a dive at altitude. I learned what I needed to know before that dive. It was more than 10 years before I did a dive in a place where tides had any effect worth thinking about, and I learned what I needed to know as I planned that dive.

I have never done any ice diving. If I decide I want to try it, I will get the appropriate training, and it does not bother me a bit that ice diving was not included in my OW training.

 

[RJP]

There is an educational concept that contrasts "just in case" education with "just in time" education. In the first, you teach everything you can think of "just in case" the diver runs into the need for it sometime in the future. In the other, you decide what really needs to be learned at that time and then focus your instruction on it.

This is true in many things. In professional presentations many people succumb to the temptation to "say everything that is true" when they put a deck together. My rule of thumb for presentations is:

If you try to make 1 point, people will remember it.
If you try to make 2 points, people will remember one of them.
If you try to make 3 points, people will not remember any of them.

As Dr Binkowski taught us in his Critical Writing course in high school "More is not better. More is just... more."

 

[Z Gear]

There is an educational concept that contrasts "just in case" education with "just in time" education. In the first, you teach everything you can think of "just in case" the diver runs into the need for it sometime in the future. In the other, you decide what really needs to be learned at that time and then focus your instruction on it. If the learner's situation evolves over time in such a way that other learning is needed, then the diver should have time to learn it "just in time" to use it. If you spend too much time teaching what students don't need to know at the moment, you interfere with their ability to learn what they really need to know right away. When they finally get around to needing that information, they will probably have forgotten it.

Basic dive education mentions things like diving at altitude and diving with tidal conditions, but it does not provide thorough instruction in those areas. Even though I lived in Colorado from the time I learned to dive, it was 5 years before I did a dive at altitude. I learned what I needed to know before that dive. It was more than 10 years before I did a dive in a place where tides had any effect worth thinking about, and I learned what I needed to know as I planned that dive.

I have never done any ice diving. If I decide I want to try it, I will get the appropriate training, and it does not bother me a bit that ice diving was not included in my OW training.

I have never done cave diving or wreck diving, if i decide to try it I will get the appropriate training, Are you really suggesting that this is even remotely in the same realm.

This topic refers to avoiding some thing that can occur at any given dive. All the it needs is a vessel to cruise over you when you are surfacing with out a marker. Very hard to argue the potential risk at any dive.

It is only because of the lack of personal connection to this, that makes a lax attitude toward making the effort to use an SMB or DSMB. When you do get a close cal,l or know some one that has, it might make you more aware of the real danger, and you will naturally change the tune toward prevention is worth the effort to use an SMB or DSMB. The problem with sending out a message like, it really is not that important to get the training from the beginning is that it presents this as a mere added knowlegde or just something else to advance your diving skill.

Instead of it being a vital safety measure that can save you and your dive buddy where ever you are diving (even on your next dive after your cert), from an aproaching vessel at the surface.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have never done cave diving or wreck diving, if i decide to try it I will get the appropriate training, Are you really suggesting that this is even remotely in the same realm.

This topic refers to avoiding some thing that can occur at any given dive. All the it needs is a vessel to cruise over you when you are surfacing with out a marker. Very hard to argue the potential risk at any dive.

Yes, I am arguing that they are in the same realm.

As I said in one of the threads you started on this topic, I pretty much always carry a DSMB in situations where I might need to use one, but have never had to use one in those situations. Many divers will have a long diving career without diving in the conditions you describe. In fact, the situation you describe, in which I would routinely surface under those situations without some kind of warning device already in place, has never occurred in well over 1,000 career dives. For those who will be diving under those conditions, there will be an opportunity to learn it when it is appropriate.

I do think everyone should have experience with and carry an SMB, but that is different.

 

[RJP]

All the it needs is a vessel to cruise over you when you are surfacing with out a marker. Very hard to argue the potential risk at any dive.

Actually, it's very EASY to argue that.

As the bumper sticker says, 70% of the planet is covered with water. Within that 70% there are lots of places to dive where there is zero, or near zero, risk of a vessel cruising over you while surfacing.

It seems that your diving experience is fairly limited and fairly narrow. There's nothing wrong with that, but you oughta get your arms around the fact that your experience is not reflective of the depth and breadth of diving available in the world.

 

[Z Gear]

Actually, it's very EASY to argue that.

As the bumper sticker says, 70% of the planet is covered with water. Within that 70% there are lots of places to dive where there is zero, or near zero, risk of a vessel cruising over you while surfacing.

It seems that your diving experience is fairly limited and fairly narrow. There's nothing wrong with that, but you oughta get your arms around the fact that your experience is not reflective of the depth and breadth of diving available in the world.

What about knowing some one personally that had a close call with a jet ski recently. This is what actually triggered my interest in this topic. Can this influence the way I view this subject?

 

[Steve_C]

No

In the local quarry there are no jet skis or boats. I know of quarry divers who will never need one.

Offshore I am much more concerned with not being seen by the boat if an ascent away from the anchor is required for some reason then being hit by a boat.

I do carry a reel and dsmb when I think I could possibly need one. In the case of a dmsb it is simple but it takes practice. If you are not careful and methodical it is possible to either loose it or become entangled if you are not careful. I do not think sending one up for real is something I would want to do without having practiced before at some point.

 

[Hawkwood]

It is a matter of risk management. What are the risks where you are diving? If jet skis or power boats are a risk, then you have to mitigate that risk. Perhaps depoying a DSMB upon surfacing is one way of mitigating that risk. Towing a dive flag is another.

For example, where I do most of my local diving, power boats or jet skis are not a risk. Therefore I do not have to plan for that risk when I dive in those areas.

 

[hroark2112]

What about knowing some one personally that had a close call with a jet ski recently. This is what actually triggered my interest in this topic. Can this influence the way I view this subject?

So any time something potentially bad happens to someone underwater, it should be mandatory to add skills to OW training?

OW will now take a year to complete and cost $50,000.00.

:crazyeye:

 

[Z Gear]

So any time something potentially bad happens to someone underwater, it should be mandatory to add skills to OW training?

OW will now take a year to complete and cost $50,000.00.

:crazyeye:

I wonder why PADI or some of the other schools would require this as part of the OW program? I am sure they thought it was important enough to make this a requirement. Does that help with your question? I don't know about the cost but if it is important enough for those organizations and worth the added cost.