Rescue type question

[doctormike]

This diver may be a minor in the eyes of the law however the certifying agency has stated that he is a competent open water diver who is allowed to make his own decisions regarding a dive. If you choose to intervene and override his decision and he is injured then you will be sued and In my book rightfully so. If you intervene and forcefully override his decision and he is not injured then you have committed assault. Failure to turn at a set pressure is a subjective decision that he is able to make for himself because a Agency trained and certified him in the sport. If he feels he can make a safe assent and be back on the boat with a turn pressure of 500 psi who are you to physically force him to do otherwise. He was not mentally incompetent, and his decision was in violation to your standard but was it a imprudent decision? That would have to be settled in court and you better have a good lawyer.

Buddy standards do not require or encourage physically forcing a diver to follow a decision that you make.

Oh, please.

You are diving with your 16 year old son and you thumb the dive and he blows you off and is LOA and keeps going, you are going to just say to yourself "Well, he IS a certified OW diver. I don't want to get sued, so I guess I'll just ascend without him"...?

Again, we don't know some details of this particular case, and what the OP means by "responsible".

 

[Zef]

Thank you all for the responses so far...I understand that this is not really a rescue situation but was not sure when I originally posted what the title should have been. I also understand the need for increased detail of the events so here is the expanded story:

The dive was guided dive in Egypt. My daughter is the 16yo diver. This was the 2nd dive of the day. On the first dive she did not manage her air well and found herself on the Octo of the dive guide. On this 2nd dive of the day (started against a moderate current and turned into a drift dive, 15+meters of visibility, no obstructions overhead) her and her dive buddy (an advanced certified diver) were off my right shoulder...since she did not manage her air well the first dive I gave here the check air pressure sign and she just looked at me and swam away. I finned over to her and looked at her guage and she grabbed it and swam away again. I than watched her signal her buddy that she had 70Bar left in her tank. Her dive buddy signaled ok and then they swam downward to the bottom. Concerned that descending further in the water column would mean she would be burning through her tank faster I swam after them and tried to get them to move upwards in the water column and level off at about 10meters (the sign my kids and I have established for that is to point at the dive computer than give an indication of depth in units of 5 meters and then horizontal motion of the hand to indicate level off)...she and her dive buddy swam off again. A couple of moments later my 16yo was heading to the dive guide who looked at her guage and put her on his octo again. I approached the guide and indicated that i would take her to the surface and indicated that my dive partner would buddy up with him...the guide undestood my intention and removed his octo and made sure she resumed breathing off her 2nd stage. I looked at her and gave the thumbs up sign that we were going to ascend. She did not want to and tried to descend to the group. I took her by the arm and indicated again that we were heading to the surface, and she actively resisted. The group continued on while this was happening. We got to about 9 meters and she was still struggling to go back down making it hard for me to watch the ascent rate on my computer so to gain control of the situation i flooded her mask which caused her to immediately stop resisting and stop trying swim down. She immediately began working on clearing her mask which allowed me to safely take her to between 5 and 6 meters to conduct a safety stop. During the safety stop she tried breaking free from my grasp on her arm. After the 3 minute safety stop we continued upwards slowly to the surface and found ourselves within 50 meters from the dive boat moored along side the reef. At the surface I instructed her to inflate her BC and swim to the ladder at the stern of the boat. She was understandably upset that her mask was flooded and her dive was cut short.

What surprised me more than her snarky behavior was that her dive partner (advanced ow certified) thought it ok to descend deeper after my daughter indicated her tank pressure....the dive brief was to ascend and conduct a safety stop, deploy DSMB, and then surface once your guage indicated 50 bar.

I felt my teenage daughter was not diving in a safe manner and her dive buddy was not applying logic to the situation. Further, her attitude/body language did not meet my standards/expectations of acceptable behavior. The two issues couple together impressed on me that her dive for the day needed to end.

I hope that clears up the events and hope to gain further insight from reading any additional responses based on these expanded details.

Thanks,
Z

 

[TMHeimer]

I agree with those opposed to the mask flooding (hadn't heard of this before). It may be different if the 16 year old is the child of the buddy or not. Don't know legalities/moralities of that. Either way if you're talking law, I don't know the answer. It has to do with what any buddy's legal responsibility is to the other, which as pointed out may vary if both are over 18 or not. Tough situation, don't know what I would've done. But creating possible panic with the mask doesn't make much sense.

 

[Chavodel8en]

Wow, tough situation. Really, no good options when your own child is actively, physically resisting your attempts to drag them up. Kind of damned if you do/don't either way. You did get your child and yourself safe, so, at least in terms of execution, we all have to say great job addressing a really bad situation, hopefully at some point in life (probably not until post-teens) she realizes this as well and thanks you for it.

That being said, I have to say that I cant think of a situation where I would flood anyone's mask ever (unless I was being attacked by a criminal mastermind's henchmen underwater I guess). Just too many chances that it could worsen the situation. Maybe she maybe couldn't her buoyancy, complete a stop while she cleared her mask. (Kudos on being able to conduct the safety stop while she was still resisting)

Sounds silly (and maybe hard with gloves), but maybe grab a good hold of the child's ear and drag them up like that. Something to let her know you really meant business and would not let her get away.

If you could somehow tether her to you, that might have been (an admittedly problematic, but hey they are all bad options) response. Also communicates to her that ascending is the only option.

None of our business, but it would be great to hear the discipline applied post dive.

 

[tkaelin]

Okay. Thanks for the extra detail. Being your child makes a difference. This may fall more under parenting/diving than dive practices in general. I was a 16 year old diver many moons ago. I dove with 2 other 16 year olds. The three of us would take our boat out in the sound and dive for lobsters at nite. While we were typical 16 year olds in many respects, we took our diving and responsibilities that come with it pretty seriously. I have been a dive guide/rescue diver and watched/hovered around my two kids when they first learned to dive (then ages 12 and 15 - two trips to Bon). They are great kids, natural divers and we have had no issues but I think I set the tone. Enjoy and love diving but do so safely and responsibly. I think if either one of my kids at 16 behaved the way your described your child did with the observations you made re the first dive I would have had a long talk with them after the dive and would have considered other options afterwards, maybe more training or more diving in more shallow controlled enviroments like shallow shore diving to improve skills, air consumption, etc. Honestly I can't really say what you did was wrong or right, it is a large part parenting your child. I think if I was out in open water on a boat dive at the depths you are referring to I can't see myself flooding my child's mask. That to me seems too drastic and potentially making matters worse more dangerous. I could envision though if all communications are ignored and I felt my child was not diving safely I could see grabbing my child by the BC/tank and doing a controlled ascent. Not sure this helps. TK

 

[CuzzA]

Zef,

I commend you for having the balls to put yourself out there for criticism. Obviously it sounds like you're questioning your decision. You say she found herself on the dive guides octo the first dive. Can you clarify this? Did she go OOA? Regardless, it sounds like her second dive should have been scratched and she needs more training.

As far as flooding her mask, I can see both sides for and against. I've seen a video of a DM use that tactic to stop a panicking diver who began to assault other divers and it does work. Watching a video and reading a description of events is a big difference. And there's no way we can put ourselves in the moment to gauge the severity of the situation. Couple that with the fact that it's YOUR daughter.

I will say this, there's no place for teenage rebellion or being a rebel while diving. It's a tough call, what do you do?

Here's an idea I'll throw out there for critisim. How about forcefully securing her inflator and maintaining a position behind her while holding her tank valve. This would give you control over her buoyancy and her body to bring her to the surface.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Thank you all for the responses so far...I understand that this is not really a rescue situation but was not sure when I originally posted what the title should have been. I also understand the need for increased detail of the events so here is the expanded story:

The dive was guided dive in Egypt. My daughter is the 16yo diver. This was the 2nd dive of the day. On the first dive she did not manage her air well and found herself on the Octo of the dive guide. On this 2nd dive of the day (started against a moderate current and turned into a drift dive, 15+meters of visibility, no obstructions overhead) her and her dive buddy (an advanced certified diver) were off my right shoulder...since she did not manage her air well the first dive I gave here the check air pressure sign and she just looked at me and swam away. I finned over to her and looked at her guage and she grabbed it and swam away again. I than watched her signal her buddy that she had 70Bar left in her tank. Her dive buddy signaled ok and then they swam downward to the bottom. Concerned that descending further in the water column would mean she would be burning through her tank faster I swam after them and tried to get them to move upwards in the water column and level off at about 10meters (the sign my kids and I have established for that is to point at the dive computer than give an indication of depth in units of 5 meters and then horizontal motion of the hand to indicate level off)...she and her dive buddy swam off again. A couple of moments later my 16yo was heading to the dive guide who looked at her guage and put her on his octo again. I approached the guide and indicated that i would take her to the surface and indicated that my dive partner would buddy up with him...the guide undestood my intention and removed his octo and made sure she resumed breathing off her 2nd stage. I looked at her and gave the thumbs up sign that we were going to ascend. She did not want to and tried to descend to the group. I took her by the arm and indicated again that we were heading to the surface, and she actively resisted. The group continued on while this was happening. We got to about 9 meters and she was still struggling to go back down making it hard for me to watch the ascent rate on my computer so to gain control of the situation i flooded her mask which caused her to immediately stop resisting and stop trying swim down. She immediately began working on clearing her mask which allowed me to safely take her to between 5 and 6 meters to conduct a safety stop. During the safety stop she tried breaking free from my grasp on her arm. After the 3 minute safety stop we continued upwards slowly to the surface and found ourselves within 50 meters from the dive boat moored along side the reef. At the surface I instructed her to inflate her BC and swim to the ladder at the stern of the boat. She was understandably upset that her mask was flooded and her dive was cut short.

What surprised me more than her snarky behavior was that her dive partner (advanced ow certified) thought it ok to descend deeper after my daughter indicated her tank pressure....the dive brief was to ascend and conduct a safety stop, deploy DSMB, and then surface once your guage indicated 50 bar.

I felt my teenage daughter was not diving in a safe manner and her dive buddy was not applying logic to the situation. Further, her attitude/body language did not meet my standards/expectations of acceptable behavior. The two issues couple together impressed on me that her dive for the day needed to end.

I hope that clears up the events and hope to gain further insight from reading any additional responses based on these expanded details.

Thanks,
Z

Sounds like a whole smattering of stuff.
Bottom line is your daughter didn't want you to baby her and felt you were overbearing--typical parent child stuff.

Getting a little personal, but is there an issue with the relationship such that you were not dive buddies. Nothing to be ashamed of here, I know a family or two who can't/shouldn't dive together based on personality conflicts?

Either you are her buddy and responsible for her or you are not, this third wheel thing is clearly an issue. Define went deeper? 1000 PSI is still a good amount of gas. 50m from the boat, does that mean the dive was nearing an end and people were go back? I don't have kids so can't really relate, but when I do and if they dive, the only way they will be diving is if I can trust they can manage there air----this whole worried they might go through the air more, can't control it, etc.

What did you talk about when the DM gave her the octo the first time? Was this acceptable?

Sounds to me like she was watching her air and went to the DM's to conserve back gas while they finished the last leg of the trip. I have done this on a pony or a 7ft hose attached to buddies doubles--always with buddies I know, not officially part of the dive plan, potentially when there is a big tank size mismatch, and used mostly to avoid a surface swim. Mostly along the lines of "Hey on our way back I might be a little low so rather than end the dive with 300-400 PSI in the tank, I'll grab your pony when I'm at 700"---some people are fine with this, other's might not be, depends on skill level/comfortability/relationship, etc

The fighting you throughout the ascent was stupid and sounds like the mask pull was warranted.

I have seen the DM give their octo to a diver that was running low as they end the dive in the Caribbean/resort locations. While I wouldn't have that happen to me, depends on the operation and specific situation if it is really and issue in my book.

What did she say on the surface/boat about what you did vs the situation vs what her thoughts were, etc

You should have these issues ironed out before doing another dive. What is protocol if one of you is running a little low air/will end dive with a lower than normal tank? Do you surface immediately, is there a situation where you can keep swimming, etc

In the situation and conditions that you describe, I probably would have left your daughter on the DMs octo assuming a) the dive was almost over and b) I knew the DM breathed like a fish

Overall, I think you handled the situation very well.

---------- Post added December 8th, 2015 at 05:51 PM ----------

Also, you were grabbing her and holding her when you flooded the mask. This is actually a technique used to control a panicking/out of control diver. People need to realize that its not like you sneaked up behind her and pulled the mask off without notice mid dive.

 

[Zef]

Sounds like a whole smattering of stuff.
Bottom line is your daughter didn't want you to baby her and felt you were overbearing--typical parent child stuff.

Getting a little personal, but is there an issue with the relationship such that you were not dive buddies. Nothing to be ashamed of here, I know a family or two who can't/shouldn't dive together based on personality conflicts?

Either you are her buddy and responsible for her or you are not, this third wheel thing is clearly an issue. Define went deeper? 1000 PSI is still a good amount of gas. 50m from the boat, does that mean the dive was nearing an end and people were go back? I don't have kids so can't really relate, but when I do and if they dive, the only way they will be diving is if I can trust they can manage there air----this whole worried they might go through the air more, can't control it, etc.\

No issues in general with the relationship, the reason I was not diving with her is that I was buddied with my 14yo daughter. I was not intending to 3rd wheel my 16yo but as a concerned parent I wanted to know whether or not she had sufficient air in her tank and that she was aware of it. There is a tendency for new divers to be focused on the sea life of a reef and forget to check their air pressure unless prompted. I figured that is what happened on the first dive and did not want her to repeat that mistake. No she was not OOA on the first dive but reached an amount of air that the guide felt necessary to hand her his octo. It was not clear where we were in reference to whether the dive was ending soon or not...there was enough time for the two of us to remove our gear/wet suits, have a one-way conversation about what happened and still a few minutes before the group finished the dive (probably about 10 to 15 minutes)...we had swum around some coral pinnacles against a current, and then drifted along a drop off and then drifted back along a coral garden and it was just by luck that we surfaced that close to the boat.

I am not so much second guessing my decision but I feel there is a lot to learn from this situation and others' insight of the situation that I can reflect on to be a better diver. I have been diving since the mid 90's, this past spring and summer my wife and kids got certified starting with the 16yo which was reward for her earning straight A's her freshman year in high school last year while competing in swimming and soccer, and practicing saxaphone and electric guitar. We asked her what she wanted as reward and she replied that she wanted to SCUBA dive, so we made it happen. I dove with her most weekends during the summer and through early fall....never had any issues remotely like this. During this trip we gave her a lot of freedom and independence and basically did not helicopter parent until this last dive when I was concerned that she needed to be more aware of her air situation.

I welcome criticism as well as supportive comments, all feedback is useful to me to reflect on and further evaluate the situation which will help me be a better diver (and parent).

-Z

 

[CptTightPants21]

No issues in general with the relationship, the reason I was not diving with her is that I was buddied with my 14yo daughter. I was not intending to 3rd wheel my 16yo but as a concerned parent I wanted to know whether or not she had sufficient air in her tank and that she was aware of it. There is a tendency for new divers to be focused on the sea life of a reef and forget to check their air pressure unless prompted. I figured that is what happened on the first dive and did not want her to repeat that mistake. No she was not OOA on the first dive but reached an amount of air that the guide felt necessary to hand her his octo. It was not clear where we were in reference to whether the dive was ending soon or not...there was enough time for the two of us to remove our gear/wet suits, have a one-way conversation about what happened and still a few minutes before the group finished the dive (probably about 10 to 15 minutes)...we had swum around some coral pinnacles against a current, and then drifted along a drop off and then drifted back along a coral garden and it was just by luck that we surfaced that close to the boat.

I am not so much second guessing my decision but I feel there is a lot to learn from this situation and others' insight of the situation that I can reflect on to be a better diver. I have been diving since the mid 90's, this past spring and summer my wife and kids got certified starting with the 16yo which was reward for her earning straight A's her freshman year in high school last year while competing in swimming and soccer, and practicing saxaphone and electric guitar. We asked her what she wanted as reward and she replied that she wanted to SCUBA dive, so we made it happen. I dove with her most weekends during the summer and through early fall....never had any issues remotely like this. During this trip we gave her a lot of freedom and independence and basically did not helicopter parent until this last dive when I was concerned that she needed to be more aware of her air situation.

I welcome criticism as well as supportive comments, all feedback is useful to me to reflect on and further evaluate the situation which will help me be a better diver (and parent).

-Z

Tough situation, but I can't say you did anything that deserves harsh criticism. I could even argue that the mask pull at the end was the right call and that more analysis/thought should be directed at the actions (both you and your daughter) that led up to it. Either way, you both need to have a conversation about what went on there.

I would also look into getting a wrist slate for everybody to make it easier to communicate.

 

[halocline]

I think it was a poor decision to flood her mask. If she's not able to dive with basic judgement or responsibility, that's an indication that unexpected stress on her during a dive could have bad consequences. Then how would you feel? You would have been better off simply pestering her until she ascended, and stayed ready to offer assistance. Your action was a result of your frustration with her bad dive behavior (at least in your opinion it was bad) and yet you responded with bad dive behavior of your own.

When I was a DM, I did on one occasion drag a client up to safety stop depth by his tank valve, although in that case he was simply unaware of his depth and not really able to manage his dive. He wasn't resisting. As a last resort, you could have dragged your daughter up gently by her valve, although I wouldn't recommend that either if she was actively resisting, but at least she wouldn't be put in a situation that could have resulted in panic.

I would suggest two things; first, since she did not responsibly manage the first dive, you should have sat her out on the 2nd dive. I presume you're the one paying for the trip, you could simply refuse to let her go on the 2nd dive. Instead, by letting her go on the 2nd, you basically sent her the message that she can get away with poor diving judgement.

Second, I'd suggest not diving with your daughter for a while. Make her dive with a private DM or instructor and maybe she'll learn something from that experience. And, it will be less stressful for you.