Rescue type question

[CptTightPants21]

I think it was a poor decision to flood her mask. If she's not able to dive with basic judgement or responsibility, that's an indication that unexpected stress on her during a dive could have bad consequences. Then how would you feel? You would have been better off simply pestering her until she ascended, and stayed ready to offer assistance. Your action was a result of your frustration with her bad dive behavior (at least in your opinion it was bad) and yet you responded with bad dive behavior of your own.

When I was a DM, I did on one occasion drag a client up to safety stop depth by his tank valve, although in that case he was simply unaware of his depth and not really able to manage his dive. He wasn't resisting. As a last resort, you could have dragged your daughter up gently by her valve, although I wouldn't recommend that either if she was actively resisting, but at least she wouldn't be put in a situation that could have resulted in panic.

I would suggest two things; first, since she did not responsibly manage the first dive, you should have sat her out on the 2nd dive. I presume you're the one paying for the trip, you could simply refuse to let her go on the 2nd dive. Instead, by letting her go on the 2nd, you basically sent her the message that she can get away with poor diving judgement.

Second, I'd suggest not diving with your daughter for a while. Make her dive with a private DM or instructor and maybe she'll learn something from that experience. And, it will be less stressful for you.

One problem is the general lack of awareness on his part. He didn't know how much air she had, he had the DM hand her off without a clear understanding between the 3 of them that they would be surfacing. In my mind, pulling the mask became acceptable mostly because of the situation that he helped create--you have no idea how much air she went through struggling with him, allowing her to go back down would be unacceptable.

She had air in her tanks, air from the DM, and air from the rest of the group. She was in more danger when he interjected himself into the situation and started fighting with her to get up than in any other part of the dive.

These things like what happens if one diver is running low on air should have been part of the dive debrief by the DM. Some let the people surface, some give them the octo, some take them back to the boat while the rest of the group continues the dive. The situation could have been handled a dozen different ways, but it all boils down to a little experience and pre-dive planning.

 

[gfaith]

Interesting post. I find no reference to controlling a panic diver by flooding their mask, but your daughter was not in panic. You should know how she reacts to a flooded mask better than any of us. CuzA had a much better technique where you basically get behind her, control her BCD/inflator, hang on to her tank valve and ascend.

After the fact, I would point out the childish actions and that future dives would require following the dive plan or no diving.

 

[CuzzA]

Here's the video I mentioned before. Correction it was an instructor who took a DM's mask after panicking and becoming violent.

Panicking Diver Gets Violent! - YouTube

 

[gfaith]

Yeah that was a simulated video. I still know of no recognized rescue course teaching mask flooding or removal to control a diver in panic. If they aspirate water through their nose after you do this we are in deep kemsheet.

I would appreciate anyone providing that reference.

 

[OldNSalty]

Sounds like someone needs to have her C Card put in the time-out chair for a bit.

 

[gfaith]

I would agree with that.

 

[Herb-alaska]

Oh, please.

You are diving with your 16 year old son and you thumb the dive and he blows you off and is LOA and keeps going, you are going to just say to yourself "Well, he IS a certified OW diver. I don't want to get sued, so I guess I'll just ascend without him"...?

Again, we don't know some details of this particular case, and what the OP means by "responsible".

That is not what I said Dr. Mike. I treat buddies different than I do my Diving Family. My Family gets 100% commitment that I will bring them to the surface or I will not come up myself. But another persons child I do not have that same level of obligation. If it was MY child and I have confirmed in my mind that the child had gone from encroachment into a set safety barrier to the arena of being a danger to themselves then I would take physical control of the situation and end the dive. I would not have flooded the mask because that brings on the potential for a new world of out of control panic diver.

The situation was not a diver that had gone into danger to themselves but had simply violated the turn pressure. Presuming that the turn pressure point had sufficient air to return to the exit point as well the prudent safety range ( 400 to 500 psi) there would have been more than sufficient time to work on the diver before you required taking physical control simply on the basis that you could do a mid water accent and encroach on that 500 psi safety pressure.

Again a diver that is continuing a dive beyond the set turn point but is not continuing to descend or exhibit other signs of being mentally impaired is not a diver that requires another diver to physically assault them to force the dive to end. I stand by my statement that it would be possibly criminal to rip a mask off a diver to end their dive at that point. I do not believe that it is prudent rescue technique to take a borderline safety issue and turn it into a panic driven emergency.

Family receives a different standard to me than another diver. I know family and their signs and mannerisms much better than I do another diving buddy.

 

[CuzzA]

Yeah that was a simulated video. I still know of no recognized rescue course teaching mask flooding or removal to control a diver in panic. If they aspirate water through their nose after you do this we are in deep kemsheet.

I would appreciate anyone providing that reference.

Simulated? I'm not saying it's not real (it is the internet) but the description suggests otherwise and would definitely be a very dangerous simulation.

I never stated that technique was taught, but apparently we're learning it does stop a diver in there tracks.

 

[Herb-alaska]

Zef thanks for the additional information this helps me understand the situation better. I would not have flooded her mask but I might have taken physical control of her. I am a big guy and a Public Safety diver so I am confident that I could have taken physical control of my 16 year old daughter. If you needed to distract her with a flood to gain the upper hand then I understand that, because she was you child and you understood that she was not acting rationally ( if that was correct) .

I would say that if she was my child I would not have her dive again unless she received remedial education and demonstrated better decision making if at no other level than I am your father and you will give me the respect of following the plan that WE work out, the same way that if my child was found to be drinking and driving even if they were not over the limit they would not be driving again until they are 18.

One to think about Zef is that she had a 1000 psi and was at 30 feet. That should be enough air that she had at least another 10 to 15 minutes of bottom time. I bet you got the cold shoulder for a big part of the rest of your trip.

if nothing else this has fostered good conversation on what we would do and what we would not do

 

[gfaith]

I am not in disagreement with you CuzzA. My problem is removing or flooding a mask for controlling a diver, and I know of no rescue class that teaches that technique. Has it been done obviously yes.. Is it smart good technique NO..

CuzzA I did not say you supported the flooding> I said your alternate method was a better approach and it is.

Quote Cuzza "Here's an idea I'll throw out there for critisim. How about forcefully securing her inflator and maintaining a position behind her while holding her tank valve. This would give you control over her buoyancy and her body to bring her to the surface."