Rescue type question

[doctormike]

That is not what I said Dr. Mike. I treat buddies different than I do my Diving Family. My Family gets 100% commitment that I will bring them to the surface or I will not come up myself. But another persons child I do not have that same level of obligation. If it was MY child and I have confirmed in my mind that the child had gone from encroachment into a set safety barrier to the arena of being a danger to themselves then I would take physical control of the situation and end the dive. I would not have flooded the mask because that brings on the potential for a new world of out of control panic diver.

The situation was not a diver that had gone into danger to themselves but had simply violated the turn pressure. Presuming that the turn pressure point had sufficient air to return to the exit point as well the prudent safety range ( 400 to 500 psi) there would have been more than sufficient time to work on the diver before you required taking physical control simply on the basis that you could do a mid water accent and encroach on that 500 psi safety pressure.

Again a diver that is continuing a dive beyond the set turn point but is not continuing to descend or exhibit other signs of being mentally impaired is not a diver that requires another diver to physically assault them to force the dive to end. I stand by my statement that it would be possibly criminal to rip a mask off a diver to end their dive at that point. I do not believe that it is prudent rescue technique to take a borderline safety issue and turn it into a panic driven emergency.

Family receives a different standard to me than another diver. I know family and their signs and mannerisms much better than I do another diving buddy.

Yeah, I guess we got more information about the OP after our posts... Sorry if I misunderstood you, I thought that you were saying that as long as someone is a certified diver, that supersedes any other consideration like the parent-child relationship, or knowing that while someone has the skills and knowledge to pass a PADI OW test, they don't have the judgement not to do something stupid.

I agree that flooding the mask doesn't sound like a good tactic to use in this situation (or any) - that can result in laryngospasm, aspiration and death in a panicked, inexperienced or incapacitated diver. I also think that the standard technique taught in the rescue diver course (controlling the tank valve, etc..) would have been a better choice.

I guess I'm just seeing myself in that exact situation, with a teenager doing what teenagers have been doing to their parents since teenagers were invented.

It's really more of a parenting discussion than a diving discussion in some ways. I would make it absolutely clear on the surface that when your buddy is thumbing a dive (the OP was his daughter's buddy on ascent) that isn't a request, that's a statement. And I would make it also very clear that if I am taking my underage child on a dive trip, I get to set all the rules, just because. If I decide that she needs to surface with 2500 PSI, then that's what she needs to do if she want's to dive. Dad's decision outweighs PADI standards. I would also probably make her work out some rock bottom calculations for the dive before I let her dive again...

 

[Steve_C]

This is not a criticism, but a question. It is not clear to me that she did not manage her air correctly. On more than one occasion, and I rarely dive with a group guide, I have seen a DM guide put somebody on their octo for a while. This was not done when they were low on air. This was done at the point that the DM saw they were going through their air faster than the rest of the group but they still had plenty of air. After a few minutes the DM returned them to their own air supply which was sufficient for them to complete the remainder of the dive including assent and safety stop. At all times the diver had enough air to make their assent.

Had the reverse happen to me once. Had hired a private DM for a few dives in Greece. On a night dive it turned out she had grabbed a wrong tank that was partially empty and overestimated my SAC. Rather than turning our dive early, we swam along for a while in an air share leaving us both plenty for the return and safety stop.

Typically guide DMs have very low SAC rates. Her going over to the DMs air for a while and extending her dive could have been perfectly safe if done while she still had an adequate reserve for a safe finish and assent. Again I do not know if this happened, but if she had done an air share on the previous dive it may be that the guide had made her feel that part of his/her air was for her use if needed.

 

[CuzzA]

I am not in disagreement with you CuzzA. My problem is removing or flooding a mask for controlling a diver, and I know of no rescue class that teaches that technique. Has it been done obviously yes.. Is it smart good technique NO..

CuzzA I did not say you supported the flooding> I said your alternate method was a better approach and it is.

Quote Cuzza "Here's an idea I'll throw out there for critisim. How about forcefully securing her inflator and maintaining a position behind her while holding her tank valve. This would give you control over her buoyancy and her body to bring her to the surface."

No problem, we agree. I misread your post.

As for the video I realize some YouTube subscribers commented the video was a simulated training video, but I can't imagine any training agency doing a stunt like that where you have someone blindly restraining a diver, the problem diver without fins, the problem diver throwing blind kicks at another diver, then viciously ripping another divers mask off and if you watch the diver restraining the problem diver you see him try to be cautious about taking the divers mask, pulling his hand back once to avoid detection. Rarely do I ever read YouTube subscribers comments nor do I put any merit into what they say. But then again, I could be wrong, it's on the Internet.

 

[Necklinsberg]

""I than watched her signal her buddy that she had 70Bar left in her tank.""

"the dive brief was to ascend and conduct a safety stop, deploy DSMB, and then surface once your guage indicated 50 bar."


Maybe I'm missing something, but when you intervened, she wasn't out of air and wasn't out of the dive plan.

 

[stuartv]

Again a diver that is continuing a dive beyond the set turn point but is not continuing to descend or exhibit other signs of being mentally impaired is not a diver that requires another diver to physically assault them to force the dive to end.

Ummmm.....

I looked at her and gave the thumbs up sign that we were going to ascend. She did not want to and tried to descend to the group.

 

[Herb-alaska]

Ummmm.....

Stuart she was at 30 feet for goodness sakes then was pulled up to about 25 feet and was descending to the group who appears to be a few feet below. You make it sound like she was incoherent and plunging into the great blue, the diver was making a reasonable decision to rejoin the dive group with 1000 psi in her tank. The problem was that she was ignoring her father's wishes which is a parent child issue not a diver issue

 

[OldNSalty]

....The problem was that she was ignoring her father's wishes which is a parent child issue not a diver issue

Exactly! Which is why as a father I totally support "yank your kid out of the water" (figuratively). If it was just another diver I would have given her the 1 finger salute and went solo.

 

[archer1960]

Zef,

I commend you for having the balls to put yourself out there for criticism. Obviously it sounds like you're questioning your decision. You say she found herself on the dive guides octo the first dive. Can you clarify this? Did she go OOA? Regardless, it sounds like her second dive should have been scratched and she needs more training.

As far as flooding her mask, I can see both sides for and against. I've seen a video of a DM use that tactic to stop a panicking diver who began to assault other divers and it does work. Watching a video and reading a description of events is a big difference. And there's no way we can put ourselves in the moment to gauge the severity of the situation. Couple that with the fact that it's YOUR daughter.

I will say this, there's no place for teenage rebellion or being a rebel while diving. It's a tough call, what do you do?

Here's an idea I'll throw out there for critisim. How about forcefully securing her inflator and maintaining a position behind her while holding her tank valve. This would give you control over her buoyancy and her body to bring her to the surface.

Yeah, that's one that I thought of too, the Knee Cradle position that is taught in Rescue Diver.

 

[fjpatrum]

Maybe I'm missing something but 70 Bar isn't 50 Bar. If she still had gas and was cognizant enough to use the guide's gas to extend her time, it sounds like she was managing her gas correctly while getting the most of the dive for her and her (more advanced) dive buddy. Win win.

That said, if my child ignored me telling her to surface, she wouldn't be diving again any time soon. (The only child I have old enough to dive hasn't been certified and has never acted this way in any other "dangerous" environment, thank goodness.)

EDIT: I would likely have tried pulling her up by her valve but may have also resorted to a mask flooding if I already had physical "control" (or the ability to assert it) to prevent a panicked rapid ascent.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

I agree that flooding the mask doesn't sound like a good tactic to use in this situation (or any) - that can result in laryngospasm, aspiration and death in a panicked, inexperienced or incapacitated diver. I also think that the standard technique taught in the rescue diver course (controlling the tank valve, etc..) would have been a better choice.

I am curious - and this is an exaggeration - if by chance the person freaked and you drag them up while they are holding their breath - for those that think this is ok - how would you feel?
What would be your defense when the person is seriously hurt and more importantly not dead and can recant the story of you forcing them to the surface?

I understand the parent child relationship but I think I would have shaken them and taken control but flooding a mask and forcing them to the surface just sounds like a recipe for disaster...
On the surface is the time to chew their ear off and give them the consequences for the actions - no?