Unqualified Divers in Caves--especially ones like Eagles Nest

[karstdvr]

@Bobby, I see an entire Ph.D. thesis here in sociology. Quite fascinating.

Somebody did, ask Dr Bill Oigarden. It may have been a study in abnormal psychology.....

 

[RyanT]

When "one place" sees a bunch of accidents it's not unreasonable for people to want something to change. If a certain intersection had 5 fatalities in 2 years people would be looking for a solution too.

There was a time that saw quite a few fatalities on the Doria in a relatively short period of time. I seem to recall that there was some discussion of "closing" the Doria and I think this was even brought up in one of the lawsuits. During this, a judge made the declaration that (paraphrasing), some people will always push the envelop, it's human nature, and not something that we should regulate.

 

[PfcAJ]

There was a time that saw quite a few fatalities on the Doria in a relatively short period of time. I seem to recall that there was some discussion of "closing" the Doria and I think this was even brought up in one of the lawsuits. During this, a judge made the declaration that (paraphrasing), some people will always push the envelop, it's human nature, and not something that we should regulate.

I 100% agree.

It's tougher to close the ocean though

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

So when you ski a a black diamond in NJ - it is really laughable. Go to PA and still black diamonds don't really mean much. But head up north to Vermont or upper state NY, out west to Colorado and beyond or in the Alps and it means a heck of a lot more... People respect it because you look over the edge and it is easy to see that the slope is beyond your skill level. Simple look and most of the time it is enough to stop most beginners from even considering it. There are still those that will never be dissuaded though either foolish, looking to measure themselves up or a few that just got out of a bar and would like to say they did it (liquid courage)...

If you really want to keep more than half of the divers out of the caves - Move the Damn Parking lot back.

I mean 1/4 or maybe 1/2 mile and tear up the road that goes to the cave - make it rocky so you can not drag a 2 wheeled dolly with your tanks. I will almost guarantee that will knock most of the "hero's" out of the running. Yes it may be unfair to some cave divers - but you will only being going if and only if you are ready to haul your equipment 1/2 mile to the hole. Aka - you are in shape and you are committed - this is not a half mile walk with full gear on a whim...

Just think about... it is a solution...

 

[tbone1004]

@Basking Ridge Diver a lot of the sites still have something like that but part of the problem there, especially at a cave like EN would be the safety of implementing something like that. To safely dive in that cave, you need far more gear than anyone could ever carry in one trip, certainly not safely, and on top of that you would also have to get it back out, and hiking with that much gear would ultimately end up in some cases of DCS in the major joints and some serious dehydration due to the drysuits. Sites where you can get away with just hiking in with doubles and an AL40 for decompression is one thing, but something where you need a CCR, at least 2 AL80's and a pair of steel bailout bottles, at least one, usually two DPV's if you're going to the back side requires at least easy enough access to get a cart through there in a reasonable distance.
Interesting dilemma eh? The "bigger" the dive site, the easier the access to the water arguably should be because of the gear requirements, but you want to keep it harder to access to keep idiots out...

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

@Basking Ridge Diver a lot of the sites still have something like that but part of the problem there, especially at a cave like EN would be the safety of implementing something like that.
...
Interesting dilemma eh? The "bigger" the dive site, the easier the access to the water arguably should be because of the gear requirements, but you want to keep it harder to access to keep idiots out...

Understood and also would have thought someone may have thought of that "solution" - but I had to throw it out there...
Maybe EN needs to be a 2 day or 3 day dive? - Half day to drag your equipment in - half day to dive... Camp out and drag your gear out on day 2...
I am not saying this is a "best" solution - and if I had more skin in the game maybe I could come up with something better...

I will hold off giving any more solutions till I think I have something better...

 

[PfcAJ]

Understood and also would have thought someone may have thought of that "solution" - but I had to throw it out there...
Maybe EN needs to be a 2 day or 3 day dive? - Half day to drag your equipment in - half day to dive... Camp out and drag your gear out on day 2...
I am not saying this is a "best" solution - and if I had more skin in the game maybe I could come up with something better...

I will hold off giving any more solutions till I think I have something better...

Or how about divers/instructors not take unqualified divers to the cave?

 

[KevinNM]

Or how about divers/instructors not take unqualified divers to the cave?

Or how about the state makes them doing that on state property illegal?

 

[RyanT]

It's tougher to close the ocean though

Yes, and unfortunate, that public outcry can close access to caves for those who are qualified to dive them. Or those dumb enough to think they are.

It reminds me of a journalism piece I read on OSHA. The take away was that OSHA tries to do the impossible...regulate that which is un-regulatable. They gave the example of the US military welding flanges onto vehicle parts so that the parts could not be installed backwards. A supervisor walks into a shop to find two guys grinding the flange off so that they could install the part backwards.

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

Or how about divers/instructors not take unqualified divers to the cave?

Unless I am missing it - that is not working...

The father son duo was not even - diver / instructor... so we need to make a better mouse trap... That is all I was saying.

Definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting different results...