Donating the "primary" regulator

[rick00001967]

what about that in the SSI instructor manual the donation of the primary is specified as "preferred"

It seems to me is a way of teaching to look at each others equipment and discuss about the techniques to use, before the dive.

the different detail: i came up with a discussion about the primary donation with a colleague few days ago... i was pointing out that in general in the rescue courses we are teaching to always stay away, and keep distance from someone panicked... even if he's drowning. 'cause the first rule is "protect yourself" and... then... help.
the donation of the primary, in his opinion, goes against this principle... letting a panicked diver take the only, surely operative reg, out of his mouth. leaving both for few seconds (hopefully) without any gas and with being also uncertain about the alternative source.

but is also true that if you do that... and the alternative is not working... then you're quite screwed yourself

you are correct that ssi does "prefer" we teach donating the primary. at our shop we do not. first, because our boss completely disagrees with this method. and second, because the regs are not configured to do it properly. this is a whole other discussion.
i completely agree, as would anyone, that the key is to discuss these things with your buddy or team before the dive so everyone knows how to deal with it. then it should be rehearsed prior to descending.
very interesting point about putting yourself first in a rescue situation. and i agree in principal with this. however, in an out of gas situation are we really going to sit back and wait for them to pass out or bolt to the surface before we step in ? i think as a buddy, and certainly as a dive pro, you have agreed to help as soon as you agreed to go diving. it is required for a dive pro to go above and beyond to give assistance. and i would hope other non pro divers understand that when you agree to accept the responsibility of being a dive buddy you also agree to provide gas immediately should the need arise.
lastly......i think more divers should pay better attention to their alternate air source. it should be of high quality and maintained just as well as your primary. not just some piece of crap that hangs there just so you can say you have one. it should be tested once your gear is assembled and again when in the water before descent just like all your other gear. so personally i find this argument (which is mentioned all the time) invalid.

 

[rhwestfall]

i think more divers should pay better attention to their alternate air source. it should be of high quality and maintained just as well as your primary. not just some piece of crap that hangs there just so you can say you have one. it should be tested once your gear is assembled and again when in the water before descent just like all your other gear. so personally i find this argument (which is mentioned all the time) invalid.

WINNER! WINNER! WINNER! (but no prize...)

 

[rick00001967]

NO PRIZE ??? booooooo

 

[boulderjohn]

You're over complicating this. This is soooo easy. Simply make the regulator on the longest hose your primary and put the short hose regulator on the bungee around your neck.

Although I clearly agree with you, in this case we are talking about the SSI methodology, and the videos I have seen by SSI instructors all show the traditional setup with the alternate on the longer hose in "the golden triangle."

 

[The Chairman]

in this case we are talking about the SSI methodology,

Are you saying this precludes them from breathing off the regulator on the longer of the two hoses?

 

[mdb]

In a real OOA incident it is not so much "Donate" as it is grasp and take.

 

[boulderjohn]

Are you saying this precludes them from breathing off the regulator on the longer of the two hoses?

I'm talking about your advice to put the alternate around the neck--with which, as I said, I agree. What is demonstrated in the SSI videos I have seen is donating the short hose primary in a conventional setup, and that was the basis for the question.

It seems to me that a lot of what you see people advocate in the teaching of alternate air scenarios is based upon what they have seen and experienced in OW pool sessions while the two divers are kneeling next to each other. When you are face to face kneeling on the floor of a pool, donating the short hose primary is a piece of cake.

A year or so ago an SSI video was shared in the Instructor to Instructor forum, and it showed even more what I mean by this. The full process showed the students being taught to follow a procedure that should have no place in a real OOA situation but was necessitated by the pool instructional process. The two divers were kneeling chest to chest, and they completed the exchange. They now had to ascend to the surface. Of course, they could not do that because they were heavily overweighted with no air in the BCD so they could be firmly planted on the bottom to make the exchange smoothly. The OOA diver therefore had to take the donated regulator from his mouth, blow some air into his inflator hose, put the regulator back into the mouth, take a breath, take the regulator out, blow some air into the inflator hose, put the regulator back into his mouth, take a breath--however many times it took for him to become buoyant enough to ascend. The donor was able to use the power inflator.

That goes back to something I mentioned recently in a thread--teaching skills in training and practice that are different from what is actually done in the real world. If instructors actually taught students their skills while they were neutrally buoyant and in horizontal trim, it might suddenly dawn on them that what they are teaching is simply wrong.

 

[The Chairman]

I'm talking about your advice to put the alternate around the neck--with which, as I said, I agree.

But you didn't answer my question. So, I called a former student who is now an SSI instructor and we had a wonderful conversation. He told me that they require donating the primary, but that there is no requirement that the primary be on the short hose. He went on that he had never even thought about it one way or the other, but he likes the concept. It's what I recommend when I have students taking my Trim, Buoyancy and Propulsion class when they have the short/shorter hose set up. The only issue was with a student who had a really crappy secondary that he personally didn't want to breathe off of. He bought one of my Hog seconds that hadn't been un-boxed yet to resolve that. I mean, really! Why have a reg on your kit that YOU don't want to breathe off of?

So the question stands for any SSI instructor. If you're going to have your student donate their primary reg, then why not have that on the longer hose? I can't see a drawback, can you?

 

[uncfnp]

Somewhat related (but not much). Did anyone notice the most recent "Costco Connection" cover? Shows diver with yellow hose primary donate set up...except I don't see a backup regulator.

 

[boulderjohn]

So the question stands for any SSI instructor. If you're going to have your student donate their primary reg, then why not have that on the longer hose? I can't see a drawback, can you?

As I said, I fully agree. I have just seen a number of SSI videos showing how it is done, and I have never seen it that way.