Depends on the location, too. On both Bonaire and Curacao they wrote down our c-card numbers, a person from the shop watched us go down on our check-out dive, and that was that. What else are they going to do? EAN tanks are behind a second door, if you show them the cert (and pay), you get the key to that. If only one of you is nitrox-certified, you still have the key... On boat dives the op is much more involved, but if it's shore diving, there's nobody to stop you from going deep or shallow or into deco assuming you have the gas.
Certifying experience/ability of a diver when booking a dive
- Thread starter blackwhiteroyalairforce
- Start date
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OP
blackwhiteroyalairforce
Registered
Thanks all for the info,
Technical dives are currently out of scope in my project. That's an added layer of complexity. Will follow shortly after probably, as there are recreational dives that get pretty close to the edge, so half of the work will probably be done.
I assume that a "safer" process would consist in capturing basic info like cert obtained, last dive date and a statement re known medical problems that could affect the dive (that just for "compliance", checkbox style).
Then issue warnings based on these.
Certs could be checked online procedurally with most of the associations, but that is a bit of a mess to deal with, so I keep that for later. On top of that, as reported the certificate have no much value in terms of "certifying". Probably can skip checks if the level is DM+, but not much additional use.
This will still require more manual checks from the diving center than I was hoping to achieve, but a balance must be found.
I am happy to be corrected here, but I believe your argument is fallacious.
Reason being that if a car crashes in a crowd (many examples in the recent months) everybody will know instinctively that it is a dangerous situation and will be able to react. If appropriately or not is an entirely different subject, but I would say that the "average joe" knows better how to deal with a car mowing people than with his or someone else's narcosis while underwater. Panic on a street = possible to instinctively do the right thing. Panic underwater = possible to instinctively do the worst possible thing.
Rescuers action would likely be prompt too and certainly less difficult than extracting a case of DCI from a remote location.
On top of that with this example we risk to get into the realms not only of accidents, but of deliberate acts. I can tell you that if I could write a software to prevent deliberate acts of violence I would be twisting the Nobel Prize for Peace between my fingers right now. Spoiler: I'm not.
I start from the assumption that no diving center can afford to assign a dive master/instructor to each diver. One accident in a group and you find yourself short-handed, but can cope. Two simultaneously and things start to snowball quickly and here it goes the beautiful dive for the entire group.
Let's assume that I empower your diving center to obtain a s***load of bookings for a more or less complex dive. You specify the restrictions to join and, in an ideal world, everything will be fine just checking the certifications. But since we're not in an ideal world I see really no way of cutting all bureaucracy for this scenario. I can help and streamline, reduce the load, but I still see the need of actual checks from your part. This limits somewhat my most hopeful vision, but it was expected.
Thanks for the awesome inputs guys, keep them coming if you feel something is missing
Technical dives are currently out of scope in my project. That's an added layer of complexity. Will follow shortly after probably, as there are recreational dives that get pretty close to the edge, so half of the work will probably be done.
I assume that a "safer" process would consist in capturing basic info like cert obtained, last dive date and a statement re known medical problems that could affect the dive (that just for "compliance", checkbox style).
Then issue warnings based on these.
Certs could be checked online procedurally with most of the associations, but that is a bit of a mess to deal with, so I keep that for later. On top of that, as reported the certificate have no much value in terms of "certifying". Probably can skip checks if the level is DM+, but not much additional use.
This will still require more manual checks from the diving center than I was hoping to achieve, but a balance must be found.
Yeah, but no. Let me state once again that my experience as a scuba diver has been non-existent to date (sadly), so I can speak only out of common sense and the little technical knowledge I've collected during the years of peeking from the outside into this passion of mine.
I am happy to be corrected here, but I believe your argument is fallacious.
Reason being that if a car crashes in a crowd (many examples in the recent months) everybody will know instinctively that it is a dangerous situation and will be able to react. If appropriately or not is an entirely different subject, but I would say that the "average joe" knows better how to deal with a car mowing people than with his or someone else's narcosis while underwater. Panic on a street = possible to instinctively do the right thing. Panic underwater = possible to instinctively do the worst possible thing.
Rescuers action would likely be prompt too and certainly less difficult than extracting a case of DCI from a remote location.
On top of that with this example we risk to get into the realms not only of accidents, but of deliberate acts. I can tell you that if I could write a software to prevent deliberate acts of violence I would be twisting the Nobel Prize for Peace between my fingers right now. Spoiler: I'm not.
I start from the assumption that no diving center can afford to assign a dive master/instructor to each diver. One accident in a group and you find yourself short-handed, but can cope. Two simultaneously and things start to snowball quickly and here it goes the beautiful dive for the entire group.
Let's assume that I empower your diving center to obtain a s***load of bookings for a more or less complex dive. You specify the restrictions to join and, in an ideal world, everything will be fine just checking the certifications. But since we're not in an ideal world I see really no way of cutting all bureaucracy for this scenario. I can help and streamline, reduce the load, but I still see the need of actual checks from your part. This limits somewhat my most hopeful vision, but it was expected.
Thanks for the awesome inputs guys, keep them coming if you feel something is missing
Ayisha
Contributor
From my experience, when I have pre-booked my dives in other countries, I have often been asked for my certification level, number of dives, and my last dive. For those asking the above, they usually asked me to fill in a dive request form with specific info. You might submit a liability waiver in advance or when you're on the boat. For one op in the US, I was asked to scan and send a copy of my c-card(s) including EANx.
When I've arrived, they usually take a look at my c-cards and log book. Depending on the type of diving, some places (like Egypt) require an easy check-out dive before you can do the dives you might want to do. If you're doing multiple dives with one shop, they will often book easy dives first and watch all divers well right from how you set up your gear, although they don't often tell you that.
Regarding your question about how they can check, if they have your name and birth date, they can look at all your certs from an agency they're affiliated with, hence the pre-dive form with your info. They can see a whole list of your certs.
The op will size you up before and during your dives, and they reserve the right to call the dive or modify it for you if they see a reason to.
When I've arrived, they usually take a look at my c-cards and log book. Depending on the type of diving, some places (like Egypt) require an easy check-out dive before you can do the dives you might want to do. If you're doing multiple dives with one shop, they will often book easy dives first and watch all divers well right from how you set up your gear, although they don't often tell you that.
Regarding your question about how they can check, if they have your name and birth date, they can look at all your certs from an agency they're affiliated with, hence the pre-dive form with your info. They can see a whole list of your certs.
The op will size you up before and during your dives, and they reserve the right to call the dive or modify it for you if they see a reason to.
OP
blackwhiteroyalairforce
Registered
Is the number of dives significant? Feel that it could be hard to track, prove and reconnect to specific experience.
The most precise thing I see is the actual test dive, but that is obviously out of my realm.
The most precise thing I see is the actual test dive, but that is obviously out of my realm.
Wrong.
Get your cert and go diving, see for yourself what is actually going on out there.
That’s generally the situation in the UK. The charter is just your taxi to/from the dive site, they have no responsibility for your diving. With the exception of getting you in and out of the water.
Anyone can book a charter providing you can get at least another 9 divers, the only cards their interested in are Visa and MasterCard. By booking the charter you get to say where to dive (normally).
See above. Full stop.
A few things I'll highlight.
1. People in a state of panic do dumb things. On land and on water. As an emergency first responder I've seen people walk into oncoming traffic to avoid a 'dangerous tree'. Underwater an experienced diver can be highly trained to manage their panic tendencies and behaviour in a sensible way instead. If you attempt psychological evaluations of any sort before allowing someone to participate in their hobby at best it's inefficient and at worst a law suit.
2. Incidences happen in clusters frequently. For example an instructor with 6 discover scuba divers in the water. No one of them has any training, skills or often common sense. It's like herding cats and is done thousands of times daily safely. From what you've described you're talking about independent certified and trained divers, no babysitting uncertified divers. The largest amount of diver deaths are people who have an unrelated medical attack while underwater. Heart attacks etc. No diver certification check or form screens for actual health problems beyond the generic and ineffective medical forms.
3. I really hope you do get some real experience diving before suggesting life saving business practices or offering 'optimization' for the business. The way I'm understanding of your take away from the feedback we've provided has me likely to be uninterested in jumping through the hoops you're suggesting adding to the booking process and I am more likely to go to the shop next door who treats divers as the autonomous competent divers we are. The market is saturated with many options.
4. Look into it the shop is in a 'taxi state`. Polarizing significance.
5. Reinventing the wheel with no experience with rolling objects is highly unlikely to produce valuable results. In the public forum you have people who's entire lives have been dedicated to diver safety and responsible dive business practices. These folks have websites designed based on this expert experience and background.
6. Time spent diving is a factor in predicting competency at diving. Again you mention the word 'prove' regarding number of dives. If someone is going to lie, forge or deceive they will regardless of the hoops they are made to jump... But hoops for the honest folk simply annoy them. TSA airport security for example. I've seen more dangerous behaviour by a dive master with perhaps 4hrs underwater total than an open water diver with 4,000 hours underwater. The discussion of certification or experience being more valuable in predicting competency is quite debated.
I hope you take the exceptional generosity of insight shared by the participants of this thread to heart. In closing I'll rehighlight that the in person BS meter is critical for screening and not to be recreated by a form online or animated.
Regards,
Cameron
Sadly true, and panic isn't always required for extremely experienced divers to kill themselves. Joachim Wendler died from an air embolism supporting the Helgoland underwater habitat in 1975. One of Jacques Cousteau's divers on the Calypso also died from an embolism in the 1980s (can't recall exactly). Freak accidents happen, even when credentials are beyond reproach.
@northernone, nice analysis
OP
blackwhiteroyalairforce
Registered
Yes, in the end I believe that there is really no wheel to be reinvented. There is only so much that a booking system can automate in this field and, as you said, the BS metering part is purely of competency of the instructor/dive master.
Re point 3 I'll be at the drawing board to think if a viable way can be found to purposefully integrate the points I've collected without detracting in any way from the experience of both the operator and the customer.
Sorry if I've come through like someone without experience who wanted to teach you how to do your job, that has never been my intention. I was only trying to approach it in the most universally "conservative" way. Probably just over-thinking.
Re point 3 I'll be at the drawing board to think if a viable way can be found to purposefully integrate the points I've collected without detracting in any way from the experience of both the operator and the customer.
Sorry if I've come through like someone without experience who wanted to teach you how to do your job, that has never been my intention. I was only trying to approach it in the most universally "conservative" way. Probably just over-thinking.
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