Certifying experience/ability of a diver when booking a dive

[chrisch]

Any idiot can scuba dive. So some people that dive are idiots. Anyone that can find a way of reliably identifying this sub group of people in any activity; paid, unpaid, leisure or occupational will soon become a millionaire and deeply unpopular with the world's many idiots

 

[northernone]

Yes, in the end I believe that there is really no wheel to be reinvented. There is only so much that a booking system can automate in this field and, as you said, the BS metering part is purely of competency of the instructor/dive master.

Re point 3 I'll be at the drawing board to think if a viable way can be found to purposefully integrate the points I've collected without detracting in any way from the experience of both the operator and the customer.

Sorry if I've come through like someone without experience who wanted to teach you how to do your job, that has never been my intention. I was only trying to approach it in the most universally "conservative" way. Probably just over-thinking.

Applying your expertise from another field to this one is welcomed! It's easy for us to be comfortable in the status quo in how things are done so an external perspective can be helpful. I suppose my cautions could be summarized as a notice not to discount or dismiss the cumulative decades (centuries plperhaps) of experience the replies you received provided. There might not be consensus but there is quality pieces provided. I'm no authority among the other replies myself. But some people's lives, families and livelihoods have depended on getting the right combination of public service and safety to allow their businesses to survive and they've shared some important components.

I look forward to your continued forum participation. Hope your ear allows you to get underwater again soon. I lost years of diving to a blown ear drum (reverse block freediving) it is was wonderful to return.

All the best,
Cameron

 

[sigxbill]

Probably can skip checks if the level is DM+

1. How are you going to know this? Professional level certified divers are often included in lawsuits they had nothing to do with - they were just on the boat - or randomly assigned to a buddy. So it is in the best interest of the professional level diver to not disclose their professional level (DM+) when signing up for a trip. So how are you going to know they are a DM+ then?

2. I have seen plenty of DM+ divers that weren't skilled to the level I think you are assuming they are. For example, I have video from a recent dive that shows an OW student, an AOW+ diver, and an instructor swimming along together. When I ask people to pick out the instructor in the video, they always pick the AOW+ diver - because the instructor looks almost like the OW student!

3. There have been times I have tried to pre-arrange advanced dives, and even though I disclosed my professional levels (when disclosing my advanced diver levels didn't seem to be enough), the operator declined to take me.

4. most dives I prearrange usually result in conversations that make it clear to the operator what my level is, so they often don't bother asking to see any card when I get there. Since I am usually hiring them as a guide / outfitter / logistics manager / transportation provider anyway, they have the opportunity to asses me along the way - which essentially results in a checkout dive that progresses into something more advanced.

5. I think your project is making a huge assumption - that the motives of all operators in qualifying an unknown diver are only to verify that the unknown diver meets the minimum standards of the dive they are attempting to sign up for. There are other motives ...

There are probably centuries of experience in this thread so far, and I agree with the overall emerging theme that I profiled in my earlier post - that procedures are varied - in part because of the varied standards used to quantify a diver's ability in a cert (does the card indicate the criteria for certification of the certifying instructor or the agency? and can you quantify the variation between the instructors and agencies?). It seems that pretty much the only certs that can be relied upon to accurately define a diver's level are not how high the cert is (including professional certs), but rather those issued by gue and utd.

One last thing - I know of many certs at all levels that were bought and not earned ... how do account for that?

good luck

 

[dmaziuk]

Sorry if I've come through like someone without experience who wanted to teach you how to do your job, that has never been my intention. I was only trying to approach it in the most universally "conservative" way. Probably just over-thinking.

I'm sure as a professional software developer you know there isn't a way to verify any information I type into a web form, there's only "I agree" button which may or may not be later found legally binding, both ways, if it comes to a lawsuit.

Secondly, as everyone else says, the motives differ. In popular vacation destinations the goal of pre-booking dives is often so the op has an idea how many people are coming on a given day and can plan out the boats and DMs and rental gear. They are not very interested in your skill level at this point. Liveaboards are different, and technical dive trips are different still.

Make sure you don't come up with a conservative improvement that neither side universally wants, nor needs.

 

[Edward3c]

I assume that a "safer" process would consist in capturing basic info like cert obtained, last dive date and a statement re known medical problems that could affect the dive (that just for "compliance", checkbox style).

Then issue warnings based on these.

Certs could be checked online procedurally with most of the associations, but that is a bit of a mess to deal with, so I keep that for later. On top of that, as reported the certificate have no much value in terms of "certifying". Probably can skip checks if the level is DM+, but not much additional use.

This will still require more manual checks from the diving center than I was hoping to achieve, but a balance must be found.

The problem with relying on dive qualifications is they don’t always line up.

Just comparing BSAC v PADI

BSAC > PADI
Ocean Diver > Open Water/Advanced Open Water
Sports Diver > Rescue Diver
Dive Leader > Dive Master
Advanced Diver > No equivalence
First Class Diver > No equivalence

I'm BSAC Advanced and have been asked a few times if I wanted to continue my training by doing the Rescue Diver course. I usually, change dive operator at that point.

In addition, Nitrox is taught as a core skill not a separate course. Similarly, dives with mandatory deco is taught in Sports Diver.

BSAC is not unique there are other agencies with similar grade name ambiguities.

 

[blackwhiteroyalairforce]

Hi guys,
sorry, have been swamped with other projects and had no time to come back to this with a reply.
I believe there is space for improvements, but probably it is not exactly where I was hoping for it to be (in the booking section).
You all raised points that either confirmed the doubts I already had or added extra points worth of consideration.

@sigxbill
1. Up to the user to disclose it. The booking system would collect anyway the cert details (and an automated system could be put in place to sort the level out automatically). Helpful or not in terms of qualifying a diver experience, it is still a basic bit of info worth collecting.
2. This is one of the main problem that I will have to deal with, as surfaced in this thread.
3. How much do you think that this point is related to point #2? What are, in your opinion, the reasons for the decline despite proving professional level certs?
4. That is another point I initially wasn't evaluating. Logistic support only vs full dive guidance.
5. Would be great if you could let me know more about this point. If there is more to it, then I am probably working on the wrong side of the project.

@dmaziuk
Avoiding useless approaches is the motivation behind starting this thread and asking to people with first-hand experience!
Note that my desire wasn't directly to avoid lawsuits. If there is a lawsuit, it means that something went wrong in the process. Would be better to fix that possible problem ahead if possible.
My goal would be to make the entire process easier for both sides (see point #3 above), taking out as much uncertainty as possible from it. Of course I have to tune my hopeful expectations to the real world.

@Edward3c
Valid concern, but I believe that equivalence tables could be drawn in a more or less granular way (more or less the same you did in your post).
Keeping certs at the center of the picture, I am way more concerned about certs bought or anyway not earned as pointed in previous posts.

For this reason probably certs would have a marginal weight in such a process.

 

[Bogtrotter]

But your certification card is your license to dive- it's central, what level you have determines what you should be qualified for. What is the point otherwise?

 

[Edward3c]

Hi guys,
sorry, have been swamped with other projects and had no time to come back to this with a reply.
I believe there is space for improvements, but probably it is not exactly where I was hoping for it to be (in the booking section).
You all raised points that either confirmed the doubts I already had or added extra points worth of consideration.
@Edward3c
Valid concern, but I believe that equivalence tables could be drawn in a more or less granular way (more or less the same you did in your post).
Keeping certs at the center of the picture, I am way more concerned about certs bought or anyway not earned as pointed in previous posts.
For this reason probably certs would have a marginal weight in such a process.

There are two 'standards' already for comparing diver qualifications.

1. the out-dated CMAS star system. (It started to fall apart after CMAS entered the training market in competition with the bodies it portrayed to give standards to, hence the ISO Standard).
2. ISO accreditation as held by PADI, GUE and BSAC (there must be others)

 

[dmaziuk]

But your certification card is your license to dive- it's central, what level you have determines what you should be qualified for. What is the point otherwise?

Nobody can stop someone from obtaining every piece of equipment required and doing $THING they are not qualified for. FVO THING including but not limited to owning firearms, driving vehicles, diving, flying, ... For diving in particular the point is we're largely self-regulating: my brain is what determines what dives I am not qualified for, and that is why attempts to help me by inventing "safer" universal procedures may be met with distrust, rejection, hostility, and in some jurisdictions: deadly force.

This was your friendly public service warning shot.

 

[Bogtrotter]

I'm not for more rigorous vetting by operators, I'd much prefer more rigorous training in the industry at the front end. However many if not most divers rely on operators/boat owners to get to their desired dive locations and safety concerns and some degree of vetting seems to be their core concerns these days. The problem stems from the popularization of diving and insufficient standards- this was started within the industry not meddling by some evil external entity.