Cave Fills on LP tanks

[bamafan]

What about an individual that doesn’t employ anyone?

That doesn’t say anything about overfilled cylinders just unsafe this and that section, I’m looking specifically for fines and punishment related to overfilling cylinders. I don’t employ anyone and neither does my local scuba shop.

Osha only cares about employees. Most of their rules are very vague. They have a general duty clause and will tie any user manuals or any other regulations in that way. You know that paper in your cordless drill you bought. If you aren't making sure your employees are following that you are liable as an employer. I deal with this stuff at work and I can assure you overfilling lp tanks is a osha violation if you have the right inspector who has been tipped off as to what to look for. It is something that is being ignored but is definitely isn't legal.

 

[kelemvor]

Osha only cares about employees. Most of their rules are very vague. They have a general duty clause and will tie any user manuals or any other regulations in that way. You know that paper in your cordless drill you bought. If you aren't making sure your employees are following that you are liable as an employer. I deal with this stuff at work and I can assure you overfilling lp tanks is a osha violation if you have the right inspector who has been tipped off as to what to look for. It is something that is being ignored but is definitely isn't legal.

Not a concern for most shops then. Most I have dealt with are operated by the owner. The ones I've encountered who are large enough to have employees are shops that "also" do scuba stuff and wouldn't have the teenage tank fill kid give you a proper fill anyway.

 

[2airishuman]

I wonder what parker turner or these crazy wkpp folks would think about overfilling steel cylinders...
i wonder if he (or they) would think you solo diving or overfilling lp steel cylinders was the more egregious stroke ****...

I have the deepest respect for the pioneers who brought structure and safety to cave diving.

The original reason for overfilling 3AA cylinders was that there were no better alternatives and it was not possible to explore deep into cave systems without sufficient gas. At that point, this was what we would call a "two-tailed problem." There is a safety risk associated with insufficient gas, and a safety risk associated with overfilled cylinders. Approached from a balance of harms standpoint, their choices were wise, in my opinion.

Again, the reason I keep posting in this thread is that this practice is being taken out of its original context. The OP is not a cave diver, has no intention of becoming one, and would be using the overfilled cylinders for routine recreational dives. The problem is "single tailed" -- there is no balance of harms at work, because the OP is contemplating dives that can be conducted just as safely with less gas, or with the now-available HP steels.

 

[LiteHedded]

I have the deepest respect for the pioneers who brought structure and safety to cave diving.

The original reason for overfilling 3AA cylinders was that there were no better alternatives and it was not possible to explore deep into cave systems without sufficient gas. At that point, this was what we would call a "two-tailed problem." There is a safety risk associated with insufficient gas, and a safety risk associated with overfilled cylinders. Approached from a balance of harms standpoint, their choices were wise, in my opinion.

Again, the reason I keep posting in this thread is that this practice is being taken out of its original context. The OP is not a cave diver, has no intention of becoming one, and would be using the overfilled cylinders for routine recreational dives. The problem is "single tailed" -- there is no balance of harms at work, because the OP is contemplating dives that can be conducted just as safely with less gas, or with the now-available HP steels.

then why is it in the tech diver section asking us for our opinions? why is he buying steel doubles? extra gas isn't only good for cave divers

 

[2airishuman]

If it’s unsafe why has there never been a problem?

Hint: it’s not unsafe.

Hint: It's because no one has won the lottery yet.

 

[2airishuman]

then why is it in the tech diver section asking us for our opinions? why is he buying steel doubles? extra gas isn't only good for cave divers

Presumably to prepare for deeper dives that are not in a cave. Ones that can be planned to be of any chosen duration.

 

[bamafan]

Not a concern for most shops then. Most I have dealt with are operated by the owner. The ones I've encountered who are large enough to have employees are shops that "also" do scuba stuff and wouldn't have the teenage tank fill kid give you a proper fill anyway.

I have gotten fills at every single shop in cave country except for EE. The only 3 shops that I know of who don't have employees filling tanks are Amigos, Dive Outpost (if Cathy doesn't have a tank monkey) and Chipola Divers. The thing is under Osha you have a duty to provide a safe workplace for your employees free of known hazards. Even if the owner is filling the tank one could argue the employee working there is still exposed to the hazard.

 

[LiteHedded]

Presumably to prepare for deeper dives that are not in a cave. Ones that can be planned to be of any chosen duration.

so why do you think more gas isn't a consideration here?
are you a technical diver?

 

[2airishuman]

I have gotten fills at every single shop in cave country except for EE. The only 3 shops that I know of who don't have employees filling tanks are Amigos, Dive Outpost (if Cathy doesn't have a tank monkey) and Chipola Divers. The thing is under Osha you have a duty to provide a safe workplace for your employees free of known hazards. Even if the owner is filling the tank one could argue the employee working there is still exposed to the hazard.

Right. If the shop has employees, then it is an OSHA-controlled workplace. The regulations apply to the workplace as a whole, regardless of who is performing the work.

 

[kelemvor]

Again, the reason I keep posting in this thread is that this practice is being taken out of its original context. The OP is not a cave diver, has no intention of becoming one, and would be using the overfilled cylinders for routine recreational dives. The problem is "single tailed" -- there is no balance of harms at work, because the OP is contemplating dives that can be conducted just as safely with less gas, or with the now-available HP steels.

He did specifically ask about getting and overfilling LP tanks in that post. We told him it's a common thing to do and it has a track record of being safe, despite being against "da rules".