SSI or PADI

[oly5050user]

I'm multi agency, but that doesn't matter.

All the major agencies recognised and audited quality standards

Your sweeping remarks are disingenuous to all the hard working and dedicated instructors from all agencies who put in a considerable amount of time and effort in teaching students to a high standard.

Yes there are some who don't care, but that's more about personal integrity more than specific agency.

Currently PADI IDC staff rating here, had NASDS, SSI instr ratings. All comes down to how individual instructor runs the course. To be honest here , though most job opportunities and best pay has been with PADI facilities. Do prefer PADI IDC method over SSI, as an examiner from PADI who does not know you, has really no history with you, has final say if a candidate pass or fails, over SSI where the store owner is usually the one who says pass or fail and he may have a financial incentive to pass a candidate as that person is probably an employee already.

 

[Olddiver1950]

PADI or SSI. Does it matter which one I decide to go with? If you have an opinion, can you give me concretes facts as to why one is a better choice than another?

Thank you.

As many have said it is the instructor and the facility rather than the agency. I have certifications from both. There are shops that are SSI that i wouldn' dive with again and there are shops that are great. Likewise with PADI. Currently I DM with a PADI shop and I think they are simply outstanding and would advise anyone in our area to get training from them. On the other hand there is another PADI shop locally with whom I have traveled and have decided that shop isn't focused on safety as much as I like. So interview the shop, the shop owner, determine what they offer and you won't go wrong.

 

[vovanx]

I think it is most important to find an instructor from any agency that you seem to have a rapport that teaching neutral buoyancy from the start. There is no need to be on your knees ever, not even in confined water 1.

as far as I remember the PADI OWD course (so I may be very wrong) - the hovering exercises are taught much later than the initial exercises like mask clear or regulator recovery.
so you start with the hovering first and then proceed to mask clear etc? isn't it breaking PADI rules on the order of exercises?
and how would you teach confined water 1 in neutral buoyancy if to teach that you will have to put all students on knees first to demonstrate them the neutral buyoancy?

 

[dcg69]

Good point Vovanx,
Neutral buoyancy and hovering are not taught in CW1 of OWD. As PADI instructor, besides the flexible skills, you cannot move skills from one lesson to another ( let's say I cannot teach "regulator recovery" after "hovering" ) or I would break the PADI standard.
Right now, as part of my IDC staff preparation, I'm looking at the skills introduced after neutral buoyancy that could be taught without kneeling on the bottom.
Still, as an instructor, I would be free to reintroduce at a later stage in the OWD course every skill neutrally buoyant previously mastered on the bottom of the pool

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

as far as I remember the PADI OWD course (so I may be very wrong) - the hovering exercises are taught much later than the initial exercises like mask clear or regulator recovery.
so you start with the hovering first and then proceed to mask clear etc? isn't it breaking PADI rules on the order of exercises?
and how would you teach confined water 1 in neutral buoyancy if to teach that you will have to put all students on knees first to demonstrate them the neutral buyoancy?

I had a long conversation with a training consultant on my approach. Because I weighted from the top, gradually adding weight until students sink and float midwater rising and falling with breath control, then I wasn't violating standards. I no longer teach for PADI, but I haven't changed how I teach open water dramatically from when I did.

I read on FB once Mark Powell making a statement (and I hope I do not mischaracterize what he said), that he focuses on finning and getting students comfortable in the water first, and then get into the skills. Getting students comfortable in the water first streamlines the skills as students have learned to be stable and thus it becomes easier. Overweighted students on their knees often fall over while trying to do a skill, so it takes longer.

I didn't think this would happen when I started teaching NB/trim right from the start, but it did. And that is consistent with the results that others have achieved. Whatever agency you decide to teach, walk through how you teach your class with the appropriate representative.

 

[boulderjohn]

PADI not only allows neutral buoyancy from the very beginning, it strongly encourages it. When it revised its standards several years ago, it made a push to teaching neutral buoyancy a major part of the program. As has been discussed many times over the last few years on ScubaBoard, many people regret that they only encouraged neutral buoyancy from the start rather than require it.

An article introducing the concept was published in their professional journal, The Undersea Journal, nearly 8 years ago. When that article was being written, the concept was new to PADI leadership, and they were at first hesitant. The published version of that article includes a statement that it is still OK to introduce skills on the knees, as long s the skills are then retaught while neutrally buoyant soon after. That sentence was added at the insistence of Karl Shreeves of PADI. He would not have added that sentence if writing the article today.

I know because the article was written by a consortium of instructors, including many on ScubaBoard. I put that group together and wrote the initial draft submitted to PADI. Karl Shreeves and I collaborated to write the final draft.

 

[Miyaru]

The article John refers to, from the Undersea Journal Q2 2011:

Going carefully from a vertical, negatively buoyant posture to a neutral, horizontal posture through a carefully planned sequence is, indeed, how some instructors do it, but some instructors use a different approach. These instructors have students neutrally buoyant from the beginning, even in the first confined water dive, with their legs resting lightly on the floor of the pool. They are in a position similar to a fin pivot, with their upper bodies supported by the air in their BCDs. This doesn’t impede learning because the light contact retains fractionized contact. It is not kneeling, but not having to focus on hovering (at first) that simplifies the skill. This minimal-contact-without-kneeling approach enhances transfer because the transition from this buoyancy state to mid water neutral is a smaller step.

......

• Training takes about the same amount of time whether kneeling or neutrally buoyant with light bottom contact.
• Students become comfortable quickly with a neutrally buoyant, horizontal posture and do not need a long adjustment period.
• Many skills are easier for students to perform while neutrally buoyant and horizontal than if they are done kneeling and vertical.
• By staying close to the student, control while neutrally buoyant differs little compared to when kneeling.

One misconception many people have when first hearing of this approach is that it requires students to perform skills while in a full hover throughout the training. As stated earlier, that’s not correct. It’s not reasonable to expect the students to have mastered neutral trim at the early learning stages. Students are generally in light contact with the pool bottom while doing most skills. That is all that is required to take buoyancy from the task load. As their training advances, students will progressively make less contact with the bottom.

And still after all these years, loads of instructors start on their knees, students on their knees as well. Unnecessary. As for the 4th bulletpoint, I disagree. From a neutral midwater position, I can reach a student much faster than from a kneeling position.

 

[oly5050user]

The article John refers to, from the Undersea Journal Q2 2011:

Going carefully from a vertical, negatively buoyant posture to a neutral, horizontal posture through a carefully planned sequence is, indeed, how some instructors do it, but some instructors use a different approach. These instructors have students neutrally buoyant from the beginning, even in the first confined water dive, with their legs resting lightly on the floor of the pool. They are in a position similar to a fin pivot, with their upper bodies supported by the air in their BCDs. This doesn’t impede learning because the light contact retains fractionized contact. It is not kneeling, but not having to focus on hovering (at first) that simplifies the skill. This minimal-contact-without-kneeling approach enhances transfer because the transition from this buoyancy state to mid water neutral is a smaller step.

......

• Training takes about the same amount of time whether kneeling or neutrally buoyant with light bottom contact.
• Students become comfortable quickly with a neutrally buoyant, horizontal posture and do not need a long adjustment period.
• Many skills are easier for students to perform while neutrally buoyant and horizontal than if they are done kneeling and vertical.
• By staying close to the student, control while neutrally buoyant differs little compared to when kneeling.

One misconception many people have when first hearing of this approach is that it requires students to perform skills while in a full hover throughout the training. As stated earlier, that’s not correct. It’s not reasonable to expect the students to have mastered neutral trim at the early learning stages. Students are generally in light contact with the pool bottom while doing most skills. That is all that is required to take buoyancy from the task load. As their training advances, students will progressively make less contact with the bottom.

And still after all these years, loads of instructors start on their knees, students on their knees as well. Unnecessary. As for the 4th bulletpoint, I disagree. From a neutral midwater position, I can reach a student much faster than from a kneeling position.

I start with module 1 with students lie flat on bottom shallow end of pool minimal lead weight , just enough to maintain slight contact with bottom of pool. Here I advise them to breath in relaxed manner and they discover as they exhale they become more negative , on inhale slightly more positive. When we get to practice proper weight checks and neutral buoyancy later in course they are already there for the most part.

 

[dcg69]

Hi John,

thanks for your valuable insight !
Besides the UW Journal article in 2011, as of today, PADI does not seem to enforce the skills in neutral buoyancy from the beginning ( which is a pity in my opinion ). For all the instructors who started after 2011 ( including myself ), it's difficult to find any evidence of it.
I would prefer a stronger requirement, for instance in the Instructor Manual, where all the skills need to be mastered in Neutral buoyancy .
Clearly it would be insane to have the skills mastered while hovering, but the way Miyaru describes them, with the student touching the bottom while neutral buoyant, it makes perfect sense

 

[yle]

In scuba diving industry, larger does not necessarily mean better.

True. And this is true of just about any industry. But the idea of "better" is so subjective, your statement is pretty much meaningless. Some people shop at Walmart (very large in retail) because "better" to them is lower price; some people shop Rodeo Drive, because "better" to them means buying insanely overpriced stuff that conveys exclusivity.

Like it or not, the same logic applies to the scuba diving industry. "Better" is different for everyone. And has little, if anything, to do with larger or smaller (i.e. being larger or smaller doesn't make an agency inherently "better"... if there is a correlation, it's coincidental.)

Agencies that have strict standards and requirements from divers as well as instructors graduate less people and are therefore smaller. Those with loose standards and poor quality control end up teaching the world how to dive.

This statement is completely illogical. You start with the premise that some agencies "graduate" fewer people than others. You then assume that both agencies start with the same number of potential graduates... but one agency has a lower "passing rate" because their standards are higher.

It's your assumption that all agencies start with the same number of potential graduates that is ridiculous... and of course you only created this assumption to create evidence to support your argument. To believe your argument, we would have to believe that some agencies (SSI?) have a high "failure" rate... i.e. a large portion of new OW students that take the SSI course end up dropping out.

It's far more likely that marketing and availability play the greatest role in which agency issues the most certs: the agency with the most shops that are most available to the most potential students. Also more likely that all agencies have similar "graduation rates", and the agencies that start with more students will "graduate" more students.

And although I am affiliated with a particular agency, I'm not biased... I am suggesting an explanation which can be tested and either refuted or confirmed. And I encourage anyone interested to do so.