Cave training - GUE vs. TDI/IANTD (or other)

[johnkendall]

A lot has already been covered above. One thing that hasn't really been mentioned is that you *have* to gain experience between GUE classes. Some people will consider this a downside as it will take more time. I consider it a massive upside, as it promotes getting comfortable before progressing.
Happy to discuss the GUE options by PM if you like.

Thanks
John

 

[Germie]

Do you want to do the course in sidemount or ccr, TDI or IANTD or nss cds is the way to go.

You want to use a stage already in the course: IANTD, with TDI there is no stage used. Both agencies have the multiple stage cave course, but if you are a trimix diver, you already know how stages work and the gas rules are no rocket science. If you think I want that course also, take it. This depends on your other stage diving experience.

If you are ready for it, and is time also important: TDI or IANTD. You can do it in 1 week. Price around 1500-2000 dollar. This can be a good choice, but is not for everybody.

Intro to tech, fundies, Essentials: not for every diver needed. It is not a requirement for TDI and IANTD or CDS. But a good instructor will do an evaluation dive and look if you are ready for tech or not. This can save you a lot of money and time. If you need it, do such a course. You need to have a minimum level before entering a tech course. But some can achieve this level by talent, willing and the right buddies and being an autodidact. The evaluation dive is then more or less an exam to look if you are ready or not. Having passed such a class doesn't say a lot if you don't practise the skills after it. You must stay current. Sometimes I have to advice to practise at home first before entering a cave class.

But the most important thing: Does the instructors personality fits you? You can go to the best instructor, but if the personality does not fit, it is not the best instructor for you.
Another important thing: how are the courses teached? Some instructors have a rigid way because of standards or personality. Others are less rigid. For example: I don't teach a course with only theory on 1 day, on every course day there is at least 1 dive. I will or would never take a course with just theory and no diving on a course day. Within TDI and IANTD I know you have such freedom. Of course you cannot jump in a cave and start a cave dive without some theory or landdrills, but to do all theory in the first day and no diving is really really boring and will not help as information will get one ear in, other out. Another important thing: is there time to have some discussions? Only do yes and amen is not the best way to learn, but some instructors only teach this way. If you can have the yes, BUT discussion, then I would prefer this.
The instructor is more important than the agency.

I did my cavern, intro and full cave in 7 days, 16 dives. It was a good course with 1 of the Thailand cave rescuers (now more or less wellknown, in 2012 'unknown'). But I already was an adv. rec. trimix diver when entering the course, so already had 'some tech' experience. It was a good course. The reason to do it in 1 week was for me: I don't live near caves and want to try to get most out of 1 trip. And I passed. As I had to travel, I planned some extra days, in case when needed I could use them and still going home with a cert. We started every day with some theory in the morning, then do 2-3 dives.

 

[taimen]

I'd say take the GUE fundamentals anyway. That you can probably do locally. There aren't really downsides with gue, but it is not the fastest way to get deep into caves, if you cannot gain experience without travelling. You must really enjoy the training itself.

 

[northernone]

What I noticed when I shopped around was the vast majority of the most respected and longest lasting cave instructors hold cards from multiple agencies. My choice would have been limited if I chose the brand before the instructor.

I do poorly with generic cookie cutter approach style teaching and love an agency which allows for common sense and personal experience to adapt materials to the local environment and gear. This is a great conversation to have with an instructor before signing up.

Trying to make a Big Mac the same all around the world (even with good quality beef) and being forced to eat at the tiny restaurant chain that sells them isn't for me. Particularly when I can't choose my entrées or side order and it doesn't matter if I like spicy or want to hold the pickles...

I also love solo diving. That pretty much excludes me from the 'team diving' philosophy some agencies push.

I have no agency brand loyalty in cave training but respect longer lasting instructors who aren't killing students out of incompetence or negligence.

Maybe you already have found a good fit for your personality, goals and philosophy within one of the brands. In that case, happy diving. If not, happy diving anyway!

Cameron

 

[jale]

Nothing much to add but I might say there is an a bit extreme emphasis on GUE general quality.
Yes the instructors are great divers but it doesn't mean they are great instructors.
Or yes, they are great instructors but they are far from being all good educators.
As said by Johnkendal, you must gain experience between levels and I agree that is a good.thing. But the thing I don't like is that some instructors are expecting you to enter the course at the end of the course level. So what is the point? To join the class to validate your level or to join the class to learn something new?
These instructors are not educators.
I also found that these pseudo-academic clothed dives promoted by some groups is quite funny if not ridiculous. It seems they take themselves a bit too seriously and that their gravitas is counter productive.
So yes GUE fundies and cave 1 or tech 1, are good courses. Level 2 classes is another story...

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Out of those I prefer GUE due to reasons mentioned above. Its disadvantages have already been mentioned by GUE folks but there are some that I would like to further expand upon. In order to truly enjoy the GUE experience, you need to have a local GUE community otherwise you may find yourself to be the fish out of the ocean. I dive with a few GUE dive buddies who are excellent divers but:

a) they prefer standard gases while everyone else prefers best mixes. When you try to buddy them up, then one side will have to compromise on its preferences.
b) my GUE buddies believe that all dives below 100 feet should be made on Helium while my TDI buddies do 130 ft dives on air and nitrox. The cost of diving a wreck at 115 feet is significantly higher for GUE divers than for TDI.

In areas where GUE has a presence such as Florida, you will find yourself among a lot of like minded divers and that is where GUE diving is truly its money worth and can be more fun.

I am presently doing my training with UTD. Cost wise UTD courses are not as expensive as GUE courses but the standards to which they train you and the procedures and mindset is similar. Since UTD does not cost the same as GUE, the number of divers they certify is also higher than GUE, at least in my area. In that regards, UTD has taken this style of diving that was very expensive, bourgeoisie and elitist and introduced it to the masses. They are both loved and hated for this.

 

[Brian G]

GUE:
650 fundamentals 4 days
2250 cave 1 6 days
2250 cave 2 6 days
Bottom stage(s), deco stage(s), complex navigation and deco.
4150/16 days

I add this up to be $5150

 

[barth]

I add this up to be $5150

I agree, thanks

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Dont forget to add instructor's expenses. They could vary a lot if travel is required on part of the instructor.

 

[KevinNM]

- What are the pro's or con's of GUE versus TDI and IANTD as an agency (especially related to cave diving)?
-

GUE hasn't killed a cave trainee recently, unlike IANTD. So there is that.

A second Open Letter to Tom Mount nad HQ IANTD