Cave training - GUE vs. TDI/IANTD (or other)
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Having GUE-F, Tech1, Cave1 and Cave2 certs I think I can speak with little bit of authority here.
Cave 2 is a fabulous course.
Mine was actually 3 days, then 2 days off, then 2 days. This was due to a combination of our skills at the time, medical issues with one of our scheduled instructors and the other Cave2 instructor having some schedule conflicts.
We had a full cave course, we had tons of failures, complex navigation, horrible vis exits, numerous stage dives, and a whole day to spare and do a survey minicourse. So I don't know what story you think you know, but the 7 days I spent in MX for Cave 2 was the best course I ever had - by far. Way more thoughtful and challenging than Cave1 which was quite mechanical for me.
Speaking as both a GUE Instructor, and a past GUE student, I have to agree with Rjack. Both Tech 2 and Cave 2 were awesome classes to take, and are now my favourite classes to teach. They are both classes where we take highly skilled divers and help them to extend their limits and capabilities. I don't know of anyone who has come away from either class disappointed.
Thanks
John
Thanks
John
A few other pointers, make of it what you want
- When I did my GUE Cave 1, there was a student on a parallel cave 1 course, who was already a full cave diver with another agency. GUE classes are expensive, and for sure he didnt do it sgain because he was bored
- Some of the local mines here have regulations like such “recognized certifications are IANTD, GUE, NSS-CDS and NACD; divers with other certifications are welcome to enquire but need to be prepared for theory and/or practical exams”. Others allow more agencies, and while they always require full cave, they state the following exception “GUE and ISE Cave 1 divers” are also permitted without check dive. I can share links (in german). Note: no TDI on either list
And three more things to consider
- yes, noone of us wants to spend more money than necessary, but the training for an activity which is as potentially dangerous (aka lethal) as cave diving, is probably not the place where cost should be your selection criteria #1. If you can get the same quality cheaper, by all means do it, but intentionally going for less because its cheaper, I dont know what to say
- you are right, cave divers can be picky who they dive with. Go on facebook to the teammates group Teammates and post your level plus travel dates, and you’ll find buddies in a heart beat
- access to projects, eg the cave project in Sardinia this summer
- When I did my GUE Cave 1, there was a student on a parallel cave 1 course, who was already a full cave diver with another agency. GUE classes are expensive, and for sure he didnt do it sgain because he was bored
- Some of the local mines here have regulations like such “recognized certifications are IANTD, GUE, NSS-CDS and NACD; divers with other certifications are welcome to enquire but need to be prepared for theory and/or practical exams”. Others allow more agencies, and while they always require full cave, they state the following exception “GUE and ISE Cave 1 divers” are also permitted without check dive. I can share links (in german). Note: no TDI on either list
And three more things to consider
- yes, noone of us wants to spend more money than necessary, but the training for an activity which is as potentially dangerous (aka lethal) as cave diving, is probably not the place where cost should be your selection criteria #1. If you can get the same quality cheaper, by all means do it, but intentionally going for less because its cheaper, I dont know what to say
- you are right, cave divers can be picky who they dive with. Go on facebook to the teammates group Teammates and post your level plus travel dates, and you’ll find buddies in a heart beat
- access to projects, eg the cave project in Sardinia this summer
This debate comes up a lot. I can only share my personal view, with no claims about universal applicability, and certainly without any intention of wanting to doubt any of the present instructors abilities:
With other agencies, there seems to be a lot more variation in instructor quality. There are some great ones, and some ... oh well ... With GUE you know at least that the quality is a given. That doesnt mean the personality will be a perfect fit, but its one less variable to worry about. And an important one at that.
Regarding personality, I have experienced five GUE instructors, taking courses from four and one was an intern. All of them were highly effective at helping me learn, and I enjoyed classes with all of them. But I also know for sure who my favorite is, simply because of personality. I totally agree that this is important. But who stops you from asking around which instructor might fit your sytle? At fundamental and C1 level, there are quite a few to choose from to find your perfect match
I would like to reiterate this, but alas it's not as universally true as it was in the past. Some fabulous instructors are in the agency, some have left, and some mediocre ones have somehow managed to continue along. Unfortunately its not and black and white perfect as you might hope (like most things)
Hi
Good for you rjack and I am sure that your classes are really top notch John but as everything and everywhere, there are exceptions.
My level 2 class was a disaster...
The thing that put me off with GUE is that they cannot accept, even if they are above others, that they can also have some weakness.
A few GUE divers remind me of these elite groups (be diving, politics or knitting) which think they are above and so always know better.
So yes GUE is a really good agency but lets not forget that, after all, it is still down to personal interactions like 1atm said.
PS: didnt see your last post rjak. good to see we agree on that
Good for you rjack and I am sure that your classes are really top notch John but as everything and everywhere, there are exceptions.
My level 2 class was a disaster...
The thing that put me off with GUE is that they cannot accept, even if they are above others, that they can also have some weakness.
A few GUE divers remind me of these elite groups (be diving, politics or knitting
) which think they are above and so always know better.So yes GUE is a really good agency but lets not forget that, after all, it is still down to personal interactions like 1atm said.
PS: didnt see your last post rjak. good to see we agree on that
Thanks a lot for your insights guys. Really good input there. I was already quite convinced on the GUE path. I dont't have any problem with the standardization part. I dive a DIR-ish set-up anyway (give or take a few details - I still have the bases on my tanks, blasphemy
It does make a lot of sense to do the fundies so you have that squared away. There's even a local GUE instructor for fundies so that's handy.
I'm not interested in sidemount at this point and probably not in the future. Plenty of caves to not have to crawl through small holes.
But holy cow, those courses are expensive. I'll just have to rob a bank... Or two!
Since you are in Europe, are you thinking of doing your cave training in Malta? It looks like John Kendall covers that area. I'll probably do my cave training in Malta before I make the move back to Europe.
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