Blackmail by 'professionals"?

[Tug]

Based on this thread, because I’m a dive boat captain, I deserve, no DEMAND a 90% discount. After all, better make 10% and not have terrible advertising because I’m important and know people!!!












Aww crap, did I just make it on the boats full list?! Dang

 

[The Chairman]

The fact that I have heard other professionals over the years state this very thing is the reason it was included.

I don't think I've ever heard this line of reasoning before, but then I've only been diving since '69.

if you have never stayed/dived with this operation then why would "negative advertising" ever enter the equation?

Indeed. Share your personal experiences and not your bias based on being rejected.

 

[JackD342]

@Indah
Did @The Cat Man quote you correctly, or is this line also part of a much longer text that adds more context?

"We do not offer special discounts for Instructors, KITAS holders or Indonesian citizens. I never really understood why we should? The only reason people always give me is: others do it too."

If that quote is accurate, then you kind of asked "why should we?" although not in those exact words, and now I have come to the opinion that since you invited more communication, I am less inclined to share your negative reaction to the returned message. Not that I agree with what what said, but i now understand it was written in a very different context than you first presented.

@The Cat Man
Sorry, I don't accept "I was just repeating what I heard" as a justification for what you wrote in #5, or at least for the way you wrote it.

 

[admikar]

Hello,
I am the Dive Instructor that this resort is referencing. I feel I have to respond to give the entire premise and NOT just a point from the email.
As a group of 4 instructors traveling (yes real instructors, no entitled millennials), we researched an area and sent our requests for booking and of course with request for professionals discounts. This is the reply we received from this resort owner:

"We do not offer special discounts for Instructors, KITAS holders or Indonesian citizens. I never really understood why we should? The only reason people always give me is: others do it too."

AFTER we had made our choice to stay at a different place, and not as a rebuttal, I sent this reply:

"
Greetings Rob,

Thank you for your time and information regarding your resort. After careful consideration we have chosen another resort. I did want to take the time to give information to you as to why you would want to give 4 Dive Instructors professional discounts without the reason of "others do it too", so that in the future, you will not have to answer in the way you did.

1. Dive instructors do nothing but talk to travelers about diving, the places they have been, and the resorts they have stayed. This includes talking with their students and the travelers with the students. They do this all day long every day to thousands of divers a year. Now multiply that times 4. Can you think of a more cost effective way for your advertising money to be spent? Direct face to face marketing to your target audience.
2. When it boils down to numbers, everything else being equal, a 10% professional discount will make the difference in choosing your resort or someone else. So if "others do it too", you already know you are going to be more expensive and lets face it, if reviews and accommodations are good enough to reach out to you for pricing, its already come down to availability and pricing. Is it better to make 90% and have excellent advertising? or make 0% and have negative advertising?
3. Through my 18 years of recreational diving and 6 years professional experience, I have taken more trips from the professional advice of other dive instructors, than I have done so with advice from any other source. It's because they know, and you are supposed to take advice from those that know.
4. Dive instructors have fewer needs from a dive resort. Dive instructors know how important it is to be careful with gear if they use yours, but most will bring their own. Dive instructors are not going to be the ones bouncing off the coral. Dive instructors will help when needed for attention to less able divers. The 4 Dive instructors in question have collectively over 10,000 dives in conditions all over the world. That allows your employees to have less workload and be more efficient.
5. Lastly, by not offering a professional discount, you can be sure that Dive Instructors will tell others to stay away. In our experiences, by not incentivizing Dive instructors to come to a resort, usually means that a resort is cutting corners and does not run as good of a dive shop, as safe of a dive shop, or as honest of a dive shop. This is not to imply, but most resorts know that if they aren't up to standards, a dive instructor will know. Again, better to make 90% and have excellent advertising? or make 0% and have negative advertising?

Hopefully this will enlighten you as to why Dive Instructors ask for a professional discount and why you should give one. "

These facts are all true, and have been discussed with many CDs over the years. The resort owner posted this on here to retaliate that he did not earn the business, showing him to be a vindictive man that sets a false premise to make himself feel better. He was never blackmailed, he was never asked another question after giving his rates. His pricing is his choice. Our stays and recommendations are ours.

And, as usual, it turns out that there are two sides to a story.....as usual.
I'll repeat others, you had me until point #5. End of point #2 is also problematic. 90% and positive advertising or 0% and negative advertising???
If you don't go to this resort, why would you give it a negative advertisement. IMO, if you don't go there, you give it no advertisement whatsoever. Positive, neutral, negative. None.
As for point #4, you might be surprised how much of a diva dive professionals can be.

 

[gcarter]

As a non-instructor, I will throw this out there:

Holding an instructor card does not automatically make you a desirable customer.

We all know both good and bad instructors, some of which we would be happy to take recommendations from and a whole bunch more we would not. In fact, I know way more Joe & Jane Doe active divers without professional certs whose opinions mean more to me than some of the instructors I have met - and there are more of them*!

I don't own or run a dive resort, but as a business person I can guarantee you that I would not default to providing discounts just because someone holds a card, at least not any more or less a discount than I would be willing to negotiate with any customer. If an instructor wanted more than that, it would be time for them to show me a value proposition. As far as I would know, absent evidence to the contrary, they are just another diver.

* more active non-professionals than professionals

 

[happy-diver]

Hey catperson you've obviously never opened your mouth in a pub

try and shelter your family from this thread but then they already know

and pull your head out of your arse

 

[macado]

5. Lastly, by not offering a professional discount, you can be sure that Dive Instructors will tell others to stay away. In our experiences, by not incentivizing Dive instructors to come to a resort, usually means that a resort is cutting corners and does not run as good of a dive shop, as safe of a dive shop, or as honest of a dive shop. This is not to imply, but most resorts know that if they aren't up to standards, a dive instructor will know. Again, better to make 90% and have excellent advertising? or make 0% and have negative advertising?

You sound like an EXTREMELY entitled and petty individual, more so than most "entitled millennials." Words cannot even properly convey all my thoughts on this matter but I'll try..

I have no idea what type of diver you are or caliber / quality of your skills as an instructor but let me just state that for me it's often dive professionals that cause the most issues or headaches on the charters. I really do not like to paint with such a broad brush and always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but it's unfortunately often times true.

I'm not saying this is the case here but I'm sure in your "18 years as recreational diver" and 6 years as a "real instructor" you've perhaps run into the same thing. I expect your group would have been quite the handful. Either the dive site was not going to be interesting or engaging enough for you or it would be too shallow, or the dive would have been too short or not advanced enough. Oh god..I can think of so many other scenarios here.

Often times dive professionals don't want to listen to briefings because they are "instructors" and know better. They miss crucial bits of information because they are "professionals." This could be something relatively simple like safety briefings or navigation hazards at dive site, not bothering to hold onto the mooring line on ascent / decent.

Often times dive professional feel rules do not apply to them. They want to be special snowflakes because they are dive professionals, real instructors. They expect rules to be bent for them and special exceptions and accommodations to be made. The often do not want to stay with the group or if they do their own thing they surface far away from the boat or do free ascents on wrecks with heavy boat traffic.

From bombing down a wall to 200ft on a single tank, to trying to break their own personal depth record or riding turtles. I've seen it more times now than I can count.

I've had instructors actively criticize other dive professionals and give blatantly wrong and incorrect information that conflicts the information already given to students.

I've had instructors constantly badmouth other dive shops, dive resorts and dive charters because things were not be run "their way" or they did not get what they want. EXACTLY what you're trying to do to the original poster. This looks terrible to new divers who are just getting started in the this hobby and sets a pretty bad example in the industry.

But you're "real instructors, no entitled millennials." It's perfectly okay. If I were praying man (I'm not..) then I would not wish your patronage upon any dive shop, operator or dive resort.

To the original poster @Indah. You're 100% in the right here. If I ever make it back to Indonesia then I'll be sure to look your resort up. I don't require a special-snowflake discount or any special accommodations either, I just want to go diving.

 

[cerich]

I received this as reply to mail in which I refused to offer a special discount to a Dive Instructor. We do offer discounts for all sorts of reasons. For example for last minute bookings or low season. But not just because the inquiry is from an instructor or other "professional'. Maybe Padi and other organisation should pay a little bit more attention to the ethics of their members?
Lastly, by not offering a professional discount, you can be sure that Dive Instructors will tell others to stay away. In our experiences, by not incentivizing Dive instructors to come to a resort, usually means that a resort is cutting corners and does not run as good of a dive shop, as safe of a dive shop, or as honest of a dive shop. This is not to imply, but most resorts know that if they aren't up to standards, a dive instructor will know. Again, better to make 90% and have excellent advertising? or make 0% and have negative advertising?

I get that ALL the time.. it's annoying as heck. I encourage instructors to ask and happily extend a discount, demand one and threaten me with telling everyone I suck, Deep 6 sucks, the gear is not good etc.(gotten them all) if I don't and not only will they get a "NO" delivered in my old "sailor talk" they will get their email/pm whatever well shared.

 

[cerich]

You sound like an EXTREMELY entitled and petty individual, more so than most "entitled millennials." Words cannot even properly convey all my thoughts on this matter but I'll try..

I have no idea what type of diver you are or caliber / quality of your skills as an instructor but let me just state that for me it's often dive professionals that cause the most issues or headaches on the charters. I really do not like to paint with such a broad brush and always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but it's unfortunately often times true.

I'm not saying this is the case here but I'm sure in your "18 years as recreational diver" and 6 years as a "real instructor" you've perhaps run into the same thing. I expect your group would have been quite the handful. Either the dive site was not going to be interesting or engaging enough for you or it would be too shallow, or the dive would have been too short or not advanced enough. Oh god..I can think of so many other scenarios here.

Often times dive professionals don't want to listen to briefings because they are "instructors" and know better. They miss crucial bits of information because they are "professionals." This could be something relatively simple like safety briefings or navigation hazards at dive site, not bothering to hold onto the mooring line on ascent / decent.

Often times dive professional feel rules do not apply to them. They want to be special snowflakes because they are dive professionals, real instructors. They expect rules to be bent for them and special exceptions and accommodations to be made. The often do not want to stay with the group or if they do their own thing they surface far away from the boat or do free ascents on wrecks with heavy boat traffic.

From bombing down a wall to 200ft on a single tank, to trying to break their own personal depth record or riding turtles. I've seen it more times now than I can count.

I've had instructors actively criticize other dive professionals and give blatantly wrong and incorrect information that conflicts the information already given to students.

I've had instructors constantly badmouth other dive shops, dive resorts and dive charters because things were not be run "their way" or they did not get what they want. EXACTLY what you're trying to do to the original poster. This looks terrible to new divers who are just getting started in the this hobby and sets a pretty bad example in the industry.

But you're "real instructors, no entitled millennials." It's perfectly okay. If I were praying man (I'm not..) then I would not wish your patronage upon any dive shop, operator or dive resort.

To the original poster @Indah. You're 100% in the right here. If I ever make it back to Indonesia then I'll be sure to look your resort up. I don't require a special-snowflake discount or any special accommodations either, I just want to go diving.

My exact thoughts from having been a Cayman instructor for 5 years.

 

[Wookie]

You sound like an EXTREMELY entitled and petty individual, more so than most "entitled millennials." Words cannot even properly convey all my thoughts on this matter but I'll try..

I have no idea what type of diver you are or caliber / quality of your skills as an instructor but let me just state that for me it's often dive professionals that cause the most issues or headaches on the charters. I really do not like to paint with such a broad brush and always try to give everyone the benefit of the doubt but it's unfortunately often times true.

I'm not saying this is the case here but I'm sure in your "18 years as recreational diver" and 6 years as a "real instructor" you've perhaps run into the same thing. I expect your group would have been quite the handful. Either the dive site was not going to be interesting or engaging enough for you or it would be too shallow, or the dive would have been too short or not advanced enough. Oh god..I can think of so many other scenarios here.

Often times dive professionals don't want to listen to briefings because they are "instructors" and know better. They miss crucial bits of information because they are "professionals." This could be something relatively simple like safety briefings or navigation hazards at dive site, not bothering to hold onto the mooring line on ascent / decent.

Often times dive professional feel rules do not apply to them. They want to be special snowflakes because they are dive professionals, real instructors. They expect rules to be bent for them and special exceptions and accommodations to be made. The often do not want to stay with the group or if they do their own thing they surface far away from the boat or do free ascents on wrecks with heavy boat traffic.

From bombing down a wall to 200ft on a single tank, to trying to break their own personal depth record or riding turtles. I've seen it more times now than I can count.

I've had instructors actively criticize other dive professionals and give blatantly wrong and incorrect information that conflicts the information already given to students.

I've had instructors constantly badmouth other dive shops, dive resorts and dive charters because things were not be run "their way" or they did not get what they want. EXACTLY what you're trying to do to the original poster. This looks terrible to new divers who are just getting started in the this hobby and sets a pretty bad example in the industry.

But you're "real instructors, no entitled millennials." It's perfectly okay. If I were praying man (I'm not..) then I would not wish your patronage upon any dive shop, operator or dive resort.

To the original poster @Indah. You're 100% in the right here. If I ever make it back to Indonesia then I'll be sure to look your resort up. I don't require a special-snowflake discount or any special accommodations either, I just want to go diving.

A zillion likes to you, Sir. You have won the Internet for the day, Nay, for the week.