Electrical tape.
Ultima Dry Glove System question
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Seriously? (asking earnestly not challenging the suggestion)....does this work?
Hmmm....I wonder if that self fusing type tape would work better.
Does that o-ring like lip on the cover rings/bands do anything for us when using Showa type gloves?
-Z
I now have 2 wraps of blue electrical tape over each cover band. A protective wrap over the protective bands.
I pulled a hack from my bicycle mechanic bank of knowledge....heat a knife in a flame and press it on the end of the electrical tape to fuse the end and keep it from unraveling....this was a tip I learned a long time ago to keep the electrical tape used to secure the ends of handlebar tape from peeling up in the heat of the summer.
I suppose I can stretch an o-ring over the glove and ring as a replacement for the lip of the cover bands in the future if/when the cover bands need replaced, and then cover with electrical tape as above....that is if the electrical tape survives a dive.
Diving fresh water tomorrow, expecting 4c water temp, will report back how the tape works out.
-Z
I pulled a hack from my bicycle mechanic bank of knowledge....heat a knife in a flame and press it on the end of the electrical tape to fuse the end and keep it from unraveling....this was a tip I learned a long time ago to keep the electrical tape used to secure the ends of handlebar tape from peeling up in the heat of the summer.
I suppose I can stretch an o-ring over the glove and ring as a replacement for the lip of the cover bands in the future if/when the cover bands need replaced, and then cover with electrical tape as above....that is if the electrical tape survives a dive.
Diving fresh water tomorrow, expecting 4c water temp, will report back how the tape works out.
-Z
Deep South Divers
Contributor
I've heard that a lot from those people who are used to diving with unlined - or "unsupported" as it's called by the glove manufacturers - gloves. While undergloves are necessary for warmth and so that your hand can slide in when diving latex gloves, the 720s have an acrylic liner already built into the glove. They slide on great and are already pretty warm.
Undergloves can add to warmth and comfort, but at the price of dexterity and tactile feel. Using them is like wearing socks with a pair of Sperrys... You can, but it's not necessary... And no, it doesn't mean that you're "crazy" if you choose not to.
The part of the Halcyon pee valve that is leaking - if it leaks when it's not closed - is the duckbill valve... Not the umbrella valve. If you want to fix it, replace the duckbill valve. If you want to keep it fixed, fashion together a condiment bottle filled with freshwater - and after using the pee valve, flush the system using the condiment bottle. That will prevent crystals from forming in either an umbrella valve or a duckbill valve.
The Trigon pee valve uses the same umbrella valve that's found in your SiTech low profile exhaust valve... But there's two of them back-to-back instead of just one... In a smaller profile and without the adjustability part. Essentially, a Trigon top is just a double-redundant exhaust valve in a more streamlined package.
Once you have your exhaust valve apart (I sent you instructions), you'll see what I'm talking about.
My buddy has silicone seals and he tears them ALL THE TIME. He must have gone through at least 3 neck seals, maybe 4, in the past year. My latex (glued in) neck seal has been going strong for a while. Don't want to jinx anything. I would maybe move to a ring system for the neck seal just in case it does tear, but for narrow shoulders it can be stiff and interfere with valve drill. I already have enough issues with the valve drill, so not really considering that. A different buddy has figured out how to re-glue in her own latex neck seal, so I think I will run crying to her when I tear mine.
Cool.
Yeah, the SiTeck Quick Neck system isn't just sometimes in the way for some people... It also complicates donning and doffing. My XL noggin barely fits through the ring. I MUCH prefer the feel of a latex neck seal alone.
That said, I deal with it because I can change a neck seal in the field in about 4 minutes... So there's that tradeoff. Either latex or silicone seals fit in the Quick Neck system.
The only neck seals that I have had fail are the latex ones... I have never had a silicone neck seal fail. The reason why the latex seals fail is because they degrade over a year or two... They get brown, brittle, or sticky - due to either ozone or UV degredation. This simply does not happen with silicone seals.
If your buddy is constantly replacing seals, then he's either donning and doffing incorrectly, needs to trim his nails, or both. It's also possible that he's not trimming his seals smoothly - and he's leaving a cut or corner in his trim that becomes a weak point and eventually tears. Silicone seems to be more sensitive to this, but a bad trim kills both seals in a hurry.
All of my drysuits are now equipped with silicone neck seals - because I find them much more reliable, much more comfortable, and seal better than latex.
The only reason I'd ever consider a latex neck seal is if I wanted to forego the Quick Neck system and needed latex because latex can be glued. Silicone can not.
I'm not sure where you're getting your information about silicone seals from, but I've personally found silicone seals to be MUCH drier than latex. The material is simply softer and more stretchy and flexible, and much less subject to age.
That said, I didn't find either one to be dry enough for my wrist tendons... Which is why I ditched them altogether and only use drygloves when diving dry.
Absolutely!
I visited Halcyon the other day and had a long discussion with the guys there (the exclusive US importer of SANTI drysuits). Quite literally, I was told that, "The plastic zipper is absolutely the WORST thing to ever happen to drysuits." I can't name who said that, but let's just say that he was in charge of the entire Halcyon/SANTI drysuit operation there in High Springs.
I was shocked to hear such a very strong and very negative opinion about them. When I asked him why he felt that way and what experience he'd had with them, he stopped talking. It just makes no sense to me.
I've had many suits with either the YKK plastic or TiZip Masterseal - and never once had an issue with one of them, even in a commercial dive-every-day environment. Conversely, I have never NOT had an eventual zipper failure out of every brass zipper I've ever owned... Even when waxed virtually every dive (which is an enormous PITA).
The only thing that I can guess is that there were issues with the old plastic zip that TiZip first debuted years ago (the non-Masterseal version). I've seen that zipper personally and frankly, wondered how it the world it worked at all.
Today's plastic zips - both manufacturers' versions - are fantastic.
Well, I'm pretty sure that glove was leaking tonight at the pool.
Be sure to check around the glove for wrinkles in the fabric. If it's wrinkled, it'll surely leak, no matter what glove or ring you're using.
Keep us posted.
Call DRIS. They charged me something like $12 for a spare set, I think.
According to Waterproof, yes, the lip on the "cosmetic ring" helps lock the glove in place. I don't see how that'd really do that - but that's what they said.
I would think that your O-ring and tape idea would work well.
Eagerly waiting for your review.
laikabear
Contributor
Undergloves can add to warmth and comfort, but at the price of dexterity and tactile feel. Using them is like wearing socks with a pair of Sperrys... You can, but it's not necessary... And no, it doesn't mean that you're "crazy" if you choose not to.
I'm going to try the glove as is in the ocean first, with a liner. I may in the future try to mount the size 7s and try one without a liner... but I have a feeling it will be too cold. Then again, I'd probably wear socks with Sperrys. HAHA! I don't think the glove could be wrinkled at all because it was SO TIGHT to get it on that ring. It's stretched to the max. I'm not 100% sure it's leaking though. I saw some air bubbles on the glove when I was doing the valve drill, but my hand wasn't really wet...
OK, I went back to my email and found the exchange I had with the Halcyon rep. I asked about the duckbill valve then! He said "I doubt the duckbill valve is the problem, since it’s inside the suit. If water is getting into the P-valve, it has to get past the flapper valve on the outside. Hopefully the replacement solves the problem." The flapper valve being the umbrella valve. So maybe I need to try swapping out the duckbill valve. I have no idea where to get one. Maybe DRIS would sell one separately...
One of my local diving friends mentioned he had to replace his duckbill valve after using vinegar to flush his P-valve, and said that vinegar degrades the material of the duckbill valve. I don't know if that's true or not. I had problems with mine since day 1 so I doubt it has anything to do with my cleaning routine. I have a 35 cc catheter tip syringe that I fill with 50:50 rubbing alcohol and water (the 70% alcohol), and I put it in the P-valve with the valve closed, and leave it for at least 10 minutes, then rinse with plain water. But, I do this at home. I don't typically flush the valve while I'm still on the dive boat. Maybe I should.
I'm not sure if he's just Kool-Aid Manning it or what.
I'm just not down for the large neck ring thingy, so I'm not really considering silicone neck seals.Well... I had spoken with Kasia at DRIS when I first got my suit about getting a lot of channeling around my wrist tendons. I asked for smaller seals and she said I already had the smallest size. Even though I am big, 5'10", I have tiny wrists - my left is only 5.7" around and right is 5.9". She recommended changing to the thinner latex seals (which did indeed work better than the HD ones my suit came with). I mis-remembered that she had said the latex seals would leak less than the silicone. I just went back thru my email convo with her and I don't think she did actually say that, even though that was what I remembered. I definitely have not tried silicone seals.
Agreed regarding dry gloves.
It sounds like some of those TiZip suits that had the delaminating problem were a total nightmare. I bet they were fielding so many calls from upset divers.
I had this awful lemon of a VW Jetta when I was in college. I don't care what has happened with that company since, I would never, in a million, billion years, buy another VW. That poor car soured me on them forever. Even though that's a pretty irrational stance to take since that was 20 years ago! So maybe that's how this guy is feeling. Too bad since the YKK plastic zipper is really nice. I lube mine up about once every 75 dives, LOL! But I understand that "burned me once" sentiment.
Thanks again for the tutorial on how to disassemble the dump valve on my drysuit. Maybe we should start another thread with just that video and step by step instructions. That was so helpful, it should be available to everyone.
Post dive update of electrical tape protection on Ultima DGS:
Total time in water: 50 min
Dive time: 45 min
Max depth: 20 meters
Average depth: 10.5 meters
water type: Fresh
Air temp: 6c
Water temp: 4c
As mentioned in my previous post I found slits/cuts in one of the protective band with o-ring lip that is fitted over the glove ring combo. I believe that in the Ultima DGS product manual this is known as a "cover ring".
My concern is/was that future manipulation of the cover ring will cause the cuts to propagate further resulting in the ring to tear through completely.
The cover rings serve as a sacrificial cosmetic and protective purpose and help reinforce the o-ring that keeps the glove in place. Unfortunately replacements parts, including the cover rings, are not widely available. The limited sources cited for replacement cover rings are asking a ridiculous price for them at approximately $12.00 US + shipping.
Following the suggestion of another member (@MaxBottomtime), I made 2 wraps of electrical tape around the mounted cover ring of each glove. The tape was applied over the protective cover ring as there was no immediate need to remove the silicone/rubber ring. The tape was pulled tight while installing but not so tight that it distorted the tape. I then fused the end by heating a butter knife with a bic lighter and briefly touched it to the last 5mm (@ 1/4th inch) of the tape to fuse the end to the wrap below to effectively keep it from unraveling with use.
Pre, mid, and post dive inspection found that the tape remained in place unaffected by the cold air or water temp. There were no signs of bubble/bulge formation or separation in the double tape layer during the post dive inspection.
The tape used was generic unbranded, 18.5mm wide (@ 3/4th inch) blue colored electrical tape. Different brands use adhesives of varying tenaciousness...the tape I used would probably rate at the middle of the spectrum regarding tenaciousness of the adhesive (using 3M electrical tape as my model for tape with a high tenacity adhesive).
The 18.5mm width tape perfectly covered the circumference of the cover ring mounted on the glove and glove ring but did not cover the area of transition just past the limit of the glove ring that is still covered by the cover rings (those who have this dry glove system with SHOWA mounted gloves should understand what is meant by this).
In the future if applying tape to the mounted glove without the cover ring in place, I would recommend (though have not tested) using 1.5 inch wide electrical tape to offer protection of the glove past the width of the glove ring as the cover ring originally provides.
The original cover rings have an o-ring type lip to help reinforce the o-ring that holds the glove on the glove ring. When using electrical tape without the cover ring in place, this reinforcing lip can be replaced by stretching one of the spare o-rings that came with system into place prior to wrapping with tape, if desired.
Self fusing silicone rubber tape may be a viable option in place of electrical tape but has not yet been tested. The benefit if this type of tape works satisfactorily is that it bonds to itself, and does not contain any adhesive that can be negatively affected by heat and time during storage and transportation (e.g., a hot car).
Duct tape could certainly be used as well, as a readily available and inexpensive substitute, it may provide more durable protection over a longer period of time, but the tenacious adhesive which should help it stay adhered in a marine environment, may cause a messy problem at time of replacement.
If anyone has any spare self-fusing silicone rubber tape they are willing to mail to my APO address, I will gladly test it to see if it is indeed a viable alternative. Products like this are available where I live but are a bit cost prohibitive here in Belgium.
I will add a couple of pictures this evening.
-Z
Total time in water: 50 min
Dive time: 45 min
Max depth: 20 meters
Average depth: 10.5 meters
water type: Fresh
Air temp: 6c
Water temp: 4c
As mentioned in my previous post I found slits/cuts in one of the protective band with o-ring lip that is fitted over the glove ring combo. I believe that in the Ultima DGS product manual this is known as a "cover ring".
My concern is/was that future manipulation of the cover ring will cause the cuts to propagate further resulting in the ring to tear through completely.
The cover rings serve as a sacrificial cosmetic and protective purpose and help reinforce the o-ring that keeps the glove in place. Unfortunately replacements parts, including the cover rings, are not widely available. The limited sources cited for replacement cover rings are asking a ridiculous price for them at approximately $12.00 US + shipping.
Following the suggestion of another member (@MaxBottomtime), I made 2 wraps of electrical tape around the mounted cover ring of each glove. The tape was applied over the protective cover ring as there was no immediate need to remove the silicone/rubber ring. The tape was pulled tight while installing but not so tight that it distorted the tape. I then fused the end by heating a butter knife with a bic lighter and briefly touched it to the last 5mm (@ 1/4th inch) of the tape to fuse the end to the wrap below to effectively keep it from unraveling with use.
Pre, mid, and post dive inspection found that the tape remained in place unaffected by the cold air or water temp. There were no signs of bubble/bulge formation or separation in the double tape layer during the post dive inspection.
The tape used was generic unbranded, 18.5mm wide (@ 3/4th inch) blue colored electrical tape. Different brands use adhesives of varying tenaciousness...the tape I used would probably rate at the middle of the spectrum regarding tenaciousness of the adhesive (using 3M electrical tape as my model for tape with a high tenacity adhesive).
The 18.5mm width tape perfectly covered the circumference of the cover ring mounted on the glove and glove ring but did not cover the area of transition just past the limit of the glove ring that is still covered by the cover rings (those who have this dry glove system with SHOWA mounted gloves should understand what is meant by this).
In the future if applying tape to the mounted glove without the cover ring in place, I would recommend (though have not tested) using 1.5 inch wide electrical tape to offer protection of the glove past the width of the glove ring as the cover ring originally provides.
The original cover rings have an o-ring type lip to help reinforce the o-ring that holds the glove on the glove ring. When using electrical tape without the cover ring in place, this reinforcing lip can be replaced by stretching one of the spare o-rings that came with system into place prior to wrapping with tape, if desired.
Self fusing silicone rubber tape may be a viable option in place of electrical tape but has not yet been tested. The benefit if this type of tape works satisfactorily is that it bonds to itself, and does not contain any adhesive that can be negatively affected by heat and time during storage and transportation (e.g., a hot car).
Duct tape could certainly be used as well, as a readily available and inexpensive substitute, it may provide more durable protection over a longer period of time, but the tenacious adhesive which should help it stay adhered in a marine environment, may cause a messy problem at time of replacement.
If anyone has any spare self-fusing silicone rubber tape they are willing to mail to my APO address, I will gladly test it to see if it is indeed a viable alternative. Products like this are available where I live but are a bit cost prohibitive here in Belgium.
I will add a couple of pictures this evening.
-Z
Degenerate
Contributor
Are the slits/cuts on the "lip" part of the protective rings as well?
Because the "lip" of the ring is what gets lodged in between your gloves and the rings is what forms the seal it would make very little to no difference if the damage was on the rest of the protective ring and not the "lip".
If the "lip" of my protective rings had slits or cuts in them I would get them replaced.
And because I've already broken one of my protective rings I would toss them in hot water before mounting them so they'd stretch a bit more and installing them would be easier, definitely won't make that mistake again!
Because the "lip" of the ring is what gets lodged in between your gloves and the rings is what forms the seal it would make very little to no difference if the damage was on the rest of the protective ring and not the "lip".
If the "lip" of my protective rings had slits or cuts in them I would get them replaced.
And because I've already broken one of my protective rings I would toss them in hot water before mounting them so they'd stretch a bit more and installing them would be easier, definitely won't make that mistake again!
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Great review, Zef! Thank you!!
I, too, find the "cover rings" to be sacrificial. They just need to be replaced every once in a while. They get cut up at my work and eventually split.
I might put some tape on them for protection.
I'll make a product request from Waterproof for a heartier ring... Perhaps something with steel mesh or Kevlar in it... Or just one made of nitrile rather than polyurethane. That'd help a lot.
I, too, find the "cover rings" to be sacrificial. They just need to be replaced every once in a while. They get cut up at my work and eventually split.
I might put some tape on them for protection.
I'll make a product request from Waterproof for a heartier ring... Perhaps something with steel mesh or Kevlar in it... Or just one made of nitrile rather than polyurethane. That'd help a lot.
Deep South Divers
Contributor
Cool! I like wearing undergloves... They make the gloves more comfy.
That said, they do remove some of the tactile feel and function that I get when I dive without undergloves. Sure, they're not as warm without an underglove, either, but they're nothing like latex. Latex transmits heat and cold so efficiently that literally - diving undergloveless in latex gloves is not an option at all.Extreme Exposure
Change them both and see if that dries things up. Remember to put a little lube on both so things are nice and flappy.
Well... It shouldn't be that sensitive. It should basically work in most conditions and only need to be opened and cleaned out thoroughly every few (or few dozen) dives.
Check the valve when you do the leak test that I recommended to you via PM. See where it's leaking... Then you can figure out the best solution.
I'm not sure if he's just Kool-Aid Manning it or what.
Fair enough.
Just so you know - that I know of there's three iterations of the SiTech neck ring... The SiTech Neck Tite, the SiTech Quick Neck (version 1) and the modern SiTech Quick Neck. The latest iteration is the smallest, softest, and most flexible of all of them and isn't bad at all. I like mine because it gives me options - like an option for a silicone neck seal.
That said - if you're happy with your latex neck seal, then keep it. No reason to fix a problem that doesn't exist... And new design or not, not having a ring around your neck is by far the most comfortable thing.
Cool. Give them a shot. I think they're like $30 for the pair or so from DRIS, and can be installed on a SiTech wrist ring system (either QCP rounds or QCS ovals) in minutes. If you don't like them, go back to what works.
The silicone seals are so soft and stretchy that a lot of guys never bother to trim them.
Agreed regarding dry gloves.
Yeah, you and I are kinda spoiled now.
That's probably exactly what happened... And since most divers dive only occasionally, they may just now be getting issues on suits that they sold years ago. Who knows?
The bottom line is - the modern plastic zips from TiZip and YKK are fantastic.
Cool... Great idea. Working on it.
I used electrical tape on my Diving Concepts rings for years and they never loosened nor frayed. I figured it was just to keep the part of the gloves connected to the rings protected from snags and bumps, although it's probably more cosmetic than anything.
I wish the tape that comes with P-Touch was cheaper. I have P-Touch labels on my camera housing that still look brand new after hundreds of dives. They never peel nor fade.
I wish the tape that comes with P-Touch was cheaper. I have P-Touch labels on my camera housing that still look brand new after hundreds of dives. They never peel nor fade.
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