Would you dive with these tanks?

[W W Meixner]

There is possibly one example of a steel tank in hydro and vis failing, and nobody seems too sure about that one.

BRT...

In 2000 an explosion occurred at a dive shop located on Big Tub Harbour in Tobermory...a steel storage tank blew up as the result of rust...the shop which never re-opened was destroyed and one shop staff member was killed...I have records of four cylinder explosion fatalities...occurring in the US and Canada between 1990 and 2000...three involving steel cylinders...one involving a composite cylinder

I saw photos of the Tobermory shop after the explosion...they were on the fill station wall of the dive shop where I had a seven year post-retirement service tech position...part of one wall and a small corner of roof was all that remained standing...these photos remained as a constant reminder...why we pay as much attention to compressed gas storage cylinders as we do...

There used to be three dive shops in Tobermory...one remains...their policy is to not fill ''any'' scuba cylinders older than 1989...

I've serviced lots of tanks...hundreds in a typical season...and after taking the courses...and understanding all the reasons behind cylinder maintenance/inspection/servicing protocols/not to mention visually seeing damage/defects/deterioration due to neglect...the understanding why you'd want to walk away from cylinders in this condition becomes very clear...

I can only imagine the condition of this shops rental fleet of regulator sets and BCD's...again...certainly no-one I'd want to dive with...

Best...

Warren

 

[BRT]

BRT...

In 2000 an explosion occurred at a dive shop located on Big Tub Harbour in Tobermory...a steel storage tank blew up as the result of rust...the shop which never re-opened was destroyed and one shop staff member was killed...I have records of four cylinder explosion fatalities...occurring in the US and Canada between 1990 and 2000...three involving steel cylinders...one involving a composite cylinder

I saw photos of the Tobermory shop after the explosion...they were on the fill station wall of the dive shop where I had a seven year post-retirement service tech position...part of one wall and a small corner of roof was all that remained standing...these photos remained as a constant reminder...why we pay as much attention to compressed gas storage cylinders as we do...

There used to be three dive shops in Tobermory...one remains...their policy is to not fill ''any'' scuba cylinders older than 1989...

I've serviced lots of tanks...hundreds in a typical season...and after taking the courses...and understanding all the reasons behind cylinder maintenance/inspection/servicing protocols/not to mention visually seeing damage/defects/deterioration due to neglect...the understanding why you'd want to walk away from cylinders in this condition becomes very clear...

I can only imagine the condition of this shops rental fleet of regulator sets and BCD's...again...certainly no-one I'd want to dive with...

Best...

Warren

OK. So 3 steel scuba cylinders? Were any of them in hydro and viz? Can you share info about them?

 

[DanSinks]

This question has been answered in a lot of different ways, but it's a bit vague in ways that would matter in a decision to use the tanks.

If I didn't see that tanks until I was already on the dive charter boat, and it was the last day to dive a great spot before getting on a plane to come home, then I might find it hard to refuse to dive with the tanks. But if I just arrived in a tropical dive destination and saw them before I booked the trip, and there was an dive operator across the street that had nice equipment, then the choice would be easy.

 

[W W Meixner]

OK. So 3 steel scuba cylinders? Were any of them in hydro and viz? Can you share info about them?

BRT...

Unfortunately...the information related above is contained in single sentence statements in my PSI Training Manual...and are as follows...

2000 - Tobermory - storage cylinder - one fatality
1999 - Grand Cayman - storage cylinder - one fatality
1994 - Waterton - steel overfill - one fatality - one moderate
1993 - Coram NY - SCBA/Composite - one fatality

There were 16 other incidents...some undefined/SCBA composite/3AL/valve failure/overfilling/storage tanks...

Six of these incidents were in Florida...

Personal/Property Damage included...personal/minor/moderate/severe injury...property damage included...fire/explosion...

It would appear that 14 of these failures were while filling either consumer scuba or consumer SCBA...therefore it would be reasonable to assume that these fourteen cylinders would have been within hydro/re-hydro dates and had annual visual inspections performed...

Two of the total incidents were as the the result of overfilling...

Best...

Warren

 

[BRT]

BRT...

Unfortunately...the information related above is contained in single sentence statements in my PSI Training Manual...and are as follows...

2000 - Tobermory - storage cylinder - one fatality
1999 - Grand Cayman - storage cylinder - one fatality
1994 - Waterton - steel overfill - one fatality - one moderate
1993 - Coram NY - SCBA/Composite - one fatality

There were 16 other incidents...some undefined/SCBA composite/3AL/valve failure/overfilling/storage tanks...

Six of these incidents were in Florida...

Personal/Property Damage included...personal/minor/moderate/severe injury...property damage included...fire/explosion...

It would appear that 14 of these failures were while filling either consumer scuba or consumer SCBA...therefore it would be reasonable to assume that these fourteen cylinders would have been within hydro/re-hydro dates and had annual visual inspections performed...

Two of the total incidents were as the the result of overfilling...

Best...

Warren

The one incident we have on record with pictures includes a statement to the effect that "the tank must have been in hydro and vis or they wouldn't have been filling it". The issue is there is a picture of the failed tank but no pictures of a vis sticker or a hydro stamp. That makes me have my doubts. I know of at least one place I can get PP fills without a vis.

 

[W W Meixner]

The one incident we have on record with pictures includes a statement to the effect that "the tank must have been in hydro and vis or they wouldn't have been filling it". The issue is there is a picture of the failed tank but no pictures of a vis sticker or a hydro stamp. That makes me have my doubts. I know of at least one place I can get PP fills without a vis.

BRT...

Not quite sure what it is you're contesting...I've given you 20 recorded incidents as provided by PSI...Professional Scuba Inspectors...dated between 1990 and 2000...with the title of the pages listing the incidents....''Explosion Problem is Real''...

The fact that you may know of a shop that is willing to fill...with oxygen...a cylinder with no annual service record verification is testimony of a serious problem within this industry...and a problem that should not be tolerated by the scuba buying public...this isn't just random carelessness...this is chronic willfull neglegence...

Finally...whenever we're diving...whether it's at home or some other place or country...we should all be exhibiting our best practices and habits...not our worst...there's enough of the worst out there already...case in point...these rusty tanks...

WM...

 

[BRT]

BRT...

Not quite sure what it is you're contesting...I've given you 20 recorded incidents as provided by PSI...Professional Scuba Inspectors...dated between 1990 and 2000...with the title of the pages listing the incidents....''Explosion Problem is Real''...

The fact that you may know of a shop that is willing to fill...with oxygen...a cylinder with no annual service record verification is testimony of a serious problem within this industry...and a problem that should not be tolerated by the scuba buying public...this isn't just random carelessness...this is chronic willfull neglegence...

Finally...whenever we're diving...whether it's at home or some other place or country...we should all be exhibiting our best practices and habits...not our worst...there's enough of the worst out there already...case in point...these rusty tanks...

WM...

Go through that list carefully and tell me how many were steel scuba cylinders that were verified to be in hydro and vis. Then tell me how many recorded incidents you have given me.

 

[markmud]

BRT...

Not quite sure what it is you're contesting...I've given you 20 recorded incidents as provided by PSI...Professional Scuba Inspectors...dated between 1990 and 2000...with the title of the pages listing the incidents....''Explosion Problem is Real''...

The fact that you may know of a shop that is willing to fill...with oxygen...a cylinder with no annual service record verification is testimony of a serious problem within this industry...and a problem that should not be tolerated by the scuba buying public...this isn't just random carelessness...this is chronic willfull neglegence...

Finally...whenever we're diving...whether it's at home or some other place or country...we should all be exhibiting our best practices and habits...not our worst...there's enough of the worst out there already...case in point...these rusty tanks...

WM...

Hi WW,

BRT's questions are valid. We are talking about steel tanks that have been abused (external rust and obvious external pitting). Who knows what the inside looks like.

You are giving anecdotal evidence because you cannot separate the steel from aluminum incidents, the overfill damaged tanks from responsibly filled tanks, and improperly maintained storage tanks from properly maintained scuba tanks.

Also, 20 questionable incidents that may or may not be related to properly maintained and tested tanks verses the number of safe fills for steel tanks. Will you break-out the data for steel tanks that are older than 1990 failing at a higher rate than newer steel tanks? And those failed tanks must have been hydroed and vizzed with no patent external damage.

A policy that refuses to fill tanks that have signs of patent external abuse is quite valid.

Controlled by your feelings much?

I would not dive or fill the tanks pictured on this thread as posted by the OP. My previously owned 50 year old PST 72 was a safe tank for anyone to fill and use.

mark

 

[W W Meixner]

Hi WW,

BRT's questions are valid. We are talking about steel tanks that have been abused (external rust and obvious external pitting). Who knows what the inside looks like.

You are giving anecdotal evidence because you cannot separate the steel from aluminum incidents, the overfill damaged tanks from responsibly filled tanks, and improperly maintained storage tanks from properly maintained scuba tanks.

Also, 20 questionable incidents that may or may not be related to properly maintained and tested tanks verses the number of safe fills for steel tanks. Will you break-out the data for steel tanks that are older than 1990 failing at a higher rate than newer steel tanks? And those failed tanks must have been hydroed and vizzed with no patent external damage.

A policy that refuses to fill tanks that have signs of patent external abuse is quite valid.

Controlled by your feelings much?

I would not dive or fill the tanks pictured on this thread as posted by the OP. My previously owned 50 year old PST 72 was a safe tank for anyone to fill and use.

mark

Mark...BRT...

The list does not provide that detail...other than steel storage cylinders that failed...of which there were three...only one of the 20 recorded actually identified a steel consumer scuba cylinder as failing...do to an overfill...resulting in one fatality...and one moderate injury...none of the 20 recorded incidents provide any information regarding being either in or out of hydro/re-hydro...or being in or out of annual visual inspection...

This list at the beginning of the PSI Training manual...was primarily provided to students to give numbers...and not investigative detail...similar to the way the news media/police reports provide the public with motor vehicle accident statistics...we as the listening public are supposed to be ''shocked into reality by numbers''...the higher the numbers...the higher the shock value...without all the specific details...a fifty car pile-up with multiple fatalities has significantly more inpact than one car going off the road and into a ditch...but both are recorded by their numbers...in this case totalling fifty one...the number...51...is all most of us will ever be made aware of...

We as enthusiasts never wanted our industry to be ''strictly'' regulated...we preferred self regulation...having to suffer the effects of missing details is part of the consequences...how many scuba related fatalities are officially listed as ''drowning'' when the actual root cause was likely something quite different...

The original OP's question was ''would you dive with these tanks''...the answers are obviously...yes and no...

Best...

Warren

 

[BRT]

Mark...BRT...

The list does not provide that detail...other than steel storage cylinders that failed...of which there were three...only one of the 20 recorded actually identified a steel consumer scuba cylinder as failing...do to an overfill...resulting in one fatality...and one moderate injury...none of the 20 recorded incidents provide any information regarding being either in or out of hydro/re-hydro...or being in or out of annual visual inspection...

This list at the beginning of the PSI Training manual...was primarily provided to students to give numbers...and not investigative detail...similar to the way the news media/police reports provide the public with motor vehicle accident statistics...we as the listening public are supposed to be ''shocked into reality by numbers''...the higher the numbers...the higher the shock value...without all the specific details...a fifty car pile-up with multiple fatalities has significantly more inpact than one car going off the road and into a ditch...but both are recorded by their numbers...in this case totalling fifty one...the number...51...is all most of us will ever be made aware of...

We as enthusiasts never wanted our industry to be ''strictly'' regulated...we preferred self regulation...having to suffer the effects of missing details is part of the consequences...how many scuba related fatalities are officially listed as ''drowning'' when the actual root cause was likely something quite different...

The original OP's question was ''would you dive with these tanks''...the answers are obviously...yes and no...

Best...

Warren

Thanks Warren, That was my point. We don't have any solid evidence that any steel scuba cylinder, in hydro and vis, has ever failed. There are a few that MAY have been in hydro and vis.

Edit: As to whether I would dive the tanks, I probably would. I know the outside has been subjected to continual saltwater but the inside may be fine. A beautiful shiny tank might have had saltwater inside and the inside scares me more than the outside because of the possibility of rust stopping my air. I am not at all concerned about one blowing up while on my back.