Fatality in the Vandenberg Wreck, Key West Florida

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during our pre-dive discussion I always tell my buddy that if either of us thumbs the dive we both end it and that they should not hesitate to do it for whatever reason. I get their agreement or we don't dive together. I don't know if such a discussion would have helped here, but maybe just having said it would have been enough. We will never know though.

w.r.t the buddy who ascended, they needed to and there is nothing wrong with what they did. It was the poor guy who ignored the buddy protocol that was at fault.
 
What else can you do but surface alone if you've given your buddy the thumb, you're sure they saw and understood, and they refuse? I don't imagine dragging them out of a wreck when they're fighting you is very feasible.

I wonder if discussing this specific scenario during dive planning would help. If buddy doesn't readily agree that anyone can call the dive at any time for any reason and both/all divers in the group will surface together, of course, you might rethink diving with them. But if buddy agrees, does having discussed it make it more likely they'll stick to that plan in the grip of narcosis? I don't have enough experience to say, but my experience with alcohol suggests it could help. People who go to a party intending to get drunk, who make plans to, say, leave their car and take a Lyft home, tend to stick to that plan even when they can't walk a straight line. People who play it by ear have a hard time realizing they're drunk and they need to not drive home. Similarly, when I was younger and single, I always had a rule for myself that I wouldn't go home with anyone unless I'd already decided to sleep with them that night before I cracked open that first beer-- and I would share my plans with my friends to keep myself accountable and keep them from worrying. The trick to drinking irresponsible amounts responsibly is to front-load as much decision-making as possible, and have very simple, strict, and explicitly laid-out plans in place for when you're under the influence. Maybe I should plan deep dives like I used to plan college parties.

ETA: @MalibuJerry beat me to the punch on that suggestion; two posts went up while I was putting that together!
 
What else can you do but surface alone if you've given your buddy the thumb, you're sure they saw and understood, and they refuse? I don't imagine dragging them out of a wreck when they're fighting you is very feasible.

I wonder if discussing this specific scenario during dive planning would help. If buddy doesn't readily agree that anyone can call the dive at any time for any reason and both/all divers in the group will surface together, of course, you might rethink diving with them. But if buddy agrees, does having discussed it make it more likely they'll stick to that plan in the grip of narcosis? I don't have enough experience to say, but my experience with alcohol suggests it could help. People who go to a party intending to get drunk, who make plans to, say, leave their car and take a Lyft home, tend to stick to that plan even when they can't walk a straight line. People who play it by ear have a hard time realizing they're drunk and they need to not drive home. Similarly, when I was younger and single, I always had a rule for myself that I wouldn't go home with anyone unless I'd already decided to sleep with them that night before I cracked open that first beer-- and I would share my plans with my friends to keep myself accountable and keep them from worrying. The trick to drinking irresponsible amounts responsibly is to front-load as much decision-making as possible, and have very simple, strict, and explicitly laid-out plans in place for when you're under the influence. Maybe I should plan deep dives like I used to plan college parties.

ETA: @MalibuJerry beat me to the punch on that suggestion; two posts went up while I was putting that together!

I think you are right. It helps to precondition a response. It is not 100% but it is far from zero also.
 
@Esprise Me

How many deep dives/have you done/what depth?

Did you read my post recounting issues of getting the attention of a narced buddy? If they’re out of it, they’re out of it. The only solution is to ascend, but if they won’t, what are you supposed to do? I’ll take care of myself. Screw the buddy.
 
@Marie13, I did read your post; I'm in agreement. I'm not sure what made you think otherwise. I've only been to 100 feet, only twice, and didn't notice any symptoms of narcosis, though I didn't try to test myself with math problems or anything. I like reading about and discussing problems I haven't encountered yet in hopes I'll be prepared when they do. Sorry if that offends anyone.
 
On the liveaboard I was on, my instabuddy for the whole trip kept on diving even when the guide signaled everyone to go up. His attitude was that he would use up as much of his air as he could before surfacing. (I know this because he reached over for my SPG after we surfaced and saw that I had 30 bar and he proclaimed proudly that he was down to 10.) The dive plan was to start return/ascent at 50 bar. The rest of us would usually complete our safety stop and then have to wait for him to finally ascend and do his safety stop. It was annoying, as he didn't stick to the dive plan. The guide tried to switch things up and gave us a different guide, to hopefully change his behavior, but it didn't change.

As for alcohol and decision making... I've been out where I've seen a woman, apparently very drunk and barely standing, being propped up by some random guy who's taking advantage of the situation. I was thinking of doing something when her two friends arrived. She told them that she was going to leave with the guy! They just let her do it. As a third party, after that, what am I supposed to do? Her friends were fine with her going with the guy, even though she was barely standing!
 
@Marie13, I did read your post; I'm in agreement. I'm not sure what made you think otherwise. I've only been to 100 feet, only twice, and didn't notice any symptoms of narcosis, though I didn't try to test myself with math problems or anything. I like reading about and discussing problems I haven't encountered yet in hopes I'll be prepared when they do. Sorry if that offends anyone.

The only way you can tell is to do deeper dives. I did a lot of those earlier this season and it gave me a good baseline.

I start getting a good buzz at about 115ft. At 128ft (my deepest), it’s significant. Really mushy brain. That’s why I’m seriously considering doing Helitrox with Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures next summer.
 
@Esprise Me

How many deep dives/have you done/what depth?

Did you read my post recounting issues of getting the attention of a narced buddy? If they’re out of it, they’re out of it. The only solution is to ascend, but if they won’t, what are you supposed to do? I’ll take care of myself. Screw the buddy.

I'm not sure why that is relevant, but 250 to 300 dives down to 310 feet.

The point of this forum is to learn if there are ways to avoid such a tragedy. Both Esprise me and I suggest that preconditioning a protocol of both buddies surfacing if one thumbs the dive for whatever reason would reduce the chance of this, not eliminate it. Marie13, remember I said that the buddy who headed for the surface did nothing wrong by bailing at that point.
 
The only way you can tell is to do deeper dives. I did a lot of those earlier this season and it gave me a good baseline.

I start getting a good buzz at about 115ft. At 128ft (my deepest), it’s significant. Really mushy brain. That’s why I’m seriously considering doing Helitrox with Adv Nitrox/Deco Procedures next summer.

As someone who doesn't drink alcohol, how would I know what "buzzed" feels like? I've been down to 43m twice and didn't feel any different. Since I had never been down that deep before, I was pretty focused on following the guide and not doing anything stupid, so maybe I was too focused to notice?
 
This incident does bring up an important issue. Hypothetical relatively new divers, maybe have their AOW card, making a dive on the Vandenberg. Most of the dive is at around 110 ft depth, so bottom time will likely run out before air supply... but both will go pretty quickly. As part of the one deep dive that AOW students make, they are cautioned about the effects of narcosis and how to recognize that a narked buddy might need help.

So now... NDL is just about up, it's time to go, you still have plenty of air, and your buddy is showing signs of narcosis. What do you do? Take care of yourself and avoid going into deco? Or attempt to help your buddy, knowing that you'll need some emergency deco and hope that your air supply is enough?

Oh... and you have to make the decision immediately.

It might be a real benefit to AOW students to discuss these kind of scenarios in the classroom setting. There's no right or wrong answer, but if newer divers are encouraged to really think about these things before getting in the water, we could see fewer negative outcomes from situations like this.

As I read the OP it reminded me of similar case in Asia. An instructor and two divers finish their wreck dive. One diver inexplicably decides to re-enter the wreck. The instructor follows, both end up dead.

Another learning topic - how much do you know about your computer's algo. What is deco vs 'deco'.
 

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