Video from a Training Dive with John Chatterton

[Marie13]

Just curious, what are TDI’s standards for video/photos during training? I did my recreational classes with SDI instructors who were perhaps overly concerned with liability and said standards prohibited it. Not sure if that is actually true.

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

Hope the OP is satisfied with the results of posting that video.

and darnit, I was hoping to watch it this weekend. Boo!

 

[Marie13]

and darnit, I was hoping to watch it this weekend. Boo!

Didn’t get the chance to see it myself.

 

[ChuckP]

Here is my honest take on all this. FWIW

Chatterton is without question an amazing accomplished and famous wreck diver. For folks who are passionate and excited about diving and wrecks, getting the chance to take a class and go diving with him is an amazing thing. No question at all.

We can argue about trim all day. I'm still here and for quite a bit of my early tech diving career as a diver and new tech instructor (as of 95) it wasn't even really on my radar. Buoyancy control was. I evolved since then and fee now that trim is an essential and foundation skill that must be mastered in the early stages of technical training. Not because it's always needed, but because it always will make the dive better. In many foreseeable circumstances and environments, it's not negotiable, fine buoyancy and trim control are absolutely needed for safety. It doesn't matter if the tech dive being conducted absolutely requires it, or may be nice or even if it doesn't matter so much during some segments of the planned dive (digging for china, no mount cave), it DOES need to be a tool that the tech diver can employ without effort while task loaded reasonably. That is central to dive safety. You can pull quite a bit off without it and compensate with big brass ones, calm head, a big experience base with lots of mistakes. Some do. However any instructor that teaches that as central is completely missing the point as to why we teach. We should be teaching so that divers learn the techniques, academic knowledge, rationale and yes mistakes of others in as controlled an environment as possible. We shortcut the danger of sole learning by mistakes and reduce the experience needed for the student to gain levels of competence depending on the course. But, we can only go so far, and skill development and experience, guided by instructors and mentors outside formal class still matter greatly. We shouldn't be, especially in the technical diving construct so much a short cut that the student is never expected to master any skills along the way but we keep on taking them deeper, farther, more task loading and ignore the fact that they quite frankly are still not truly competent in basic stuff.

Regardless of all that, we have standards.

I tend to exceed them. For a diver coming to me that expressed they want to learn so they could do the dive the OP did on the last day of class that had the prerequisites that Chatterton lists for the class

1. Students must show a minimum of fifty logged dives.
2. Students must be certified as an Advanced Open Water Diver
3. Students must be certified in Nitrox.
4. Students must be certified as Basic Wreck, Cavern, Ice Diver, or Decompression Diver.

I first would have to do advanced Nitrox, possibly depending on certs a Deco Procedures class. That combined with me is 5-6 days, You can find instructors teaching that in 3 days... and cheaper.. I may very well do that "on" a wreck, but I sure as hell am NOT gonna be doing any overhead environment on that class, no way, no how.. unless they were already a fully certified penetration wreck diver.. which Advanced wreck is so that is the goal, not what they are coming to me with.

Now.. the Hydro is deeper than the training limits of ADV Nitrox (130) or Deco Procedures (150), pkus I am not teaching beyond 130 on air anyhow, so Helitrox. Another couple days.

Then the actual advanced wreck course would be 4 days.

In other words, 11 to 12 days to get to where the 3 day class of Chatterton ended up. I do that for a few reasons, standards, time needed to not just show something but enough for the students to master it and lastly and firstly because I don't want dead students, even after they are no longer students. So I try to do all I can to prevent it within reason and knowing that people will be people. I will most likely in about a quarter to a third of the times I am teaching that type of course progression slam on the breaks and have the students go practice and get some experience before we proceed. That is because there is so much so fast they hit the wall and stop progressing and start regressing. Pushing forward at that point is just useless. I am trying to build, not break. (too badly anyhow)

Anyhow, YMMV.

If you ever find yourself as a student covering up for your instructor when you find out they had been violating standards on your course.. well I get it actually. But you REALLY , REALLY should be considering what the actual quality and value of the instruction was. No matter who that instructor is. No agency is gonna "yank your card" out of hand and will work with you somehow to make sure you either understand the true limits of your training and card, or re-mediate areas of weakness. If your instructor is telling you they know more than any standards..well that is a huge danger sign. The standards are done by committees of very experienced instructor trainers in whatever the standard is. That room ,having been in a few is filled with "strong" views by SME's and the end product I promise you has been beaten to death to ensure they are solid as can be given the state of the industry at that time, and will be an evolving document as time , technology, knowledge and yes deaths and accidents all shape change. IF you are taking a course from a tech agency that hasn't changed the standards in 20 years.. JUST DON'T.

I do believe the OP stated earlier or said it in his video, they were already AN/Deco certed before this class.

I have personally taken the three classes together, seen part of an ITT class (look at that, buoyancy skills), taken tri mix and seen tri mix 2.

From his requirements and course description, it appears that was a private class.

 

[rddvet]

So is less physical effort

Come on Chuck, we get it. We all totally understand that decreasing workload will decrease CO2. I was told by an instructor who I respect if you're working hard and getting winded, slow down and if you need to hold onto a rock (in the cave) to slow it down do so. I would have no problem if I was concerned about a CO2 hit. We've brought up helium because that is alot of depth to not be on helium, and simply to address it would help with CO2. Nobody ever said you were wrong. In this video these students weren't kneeling because they were working too hard and trying to be safer. I wasn't there, but there's no evidence of it in the video. And the current on the wreck doesn't look too bad.
You don't seem to get that the lack of skills shown in the video have been shown in several other videos in relation to Chatterton, so it's a little concerning. If it was just this one video, I probably wouldn't have said anything. I really don't care if Chatterton continues to teach a class where he allows crappy skills. That's on him and his students. I just find justifying all of the bad stuff we've seen with responses like "he's a legend and he's been fine for years" ridiculous. I've yet to see one good argument from you guys in the "it's all good" fanbase.

 

[cerich]

I do believe the OP stated earlier or said it in his video, they were already AN/Deco certed before this class.

I have personally taken the three classes together, seen part of an ITT class (look at that, buoyancy skills), taken tri mix and seen tri mix 2.

From his requirements and course description, it appears that was a private class.

None of what you said changes anything.

Even if they were AN/Deco certified prior to the class, not relevant.

 

[rddvet]

Wow. Oldschoolto doesn't have a very good argument and obviously doesn't like to hear opinions other than his own. I was surprised when this was in my inbox unsolicited:


Go **** yourself... Can't handle the truth..

Jim......

It just shows his ignorance and inability to handle other ideas. But still mods, maybe you can let this guy know either learn to debate civilly or go somewhere else. I'm not offended, but would prefer not to get idiocy like this in my inbox.

 

[cerich]

We are students. We absolutely would not run that course on our own if the instructors were not there, and having done it we now know that for a fact. We would explore one area at a time and gradually develop the understanding necessary to move that far into the wreck over many dives, using more navigational aids, that's what we were taught. If your goal is to teach real wreck divers, I'm not sure it's realistic to teach wreck diving in a way which doesn't align with how it's actually done. That is the attitude which made all of the class material I've read so divorced from real diving.

That is called a "trust me" dive. Would have sucked if instructor had issues eh?

 

[Basking Ridge Diver]

You know I never noticed before - but you can ignore everyone but a Staff Member... Is that right?

Interesting... Hmmmnnnn....

Food for thought...

 

[wetb4igetinthewater]

You know I never noticed before - but you can ignore everyone but a Staff Member... Is that right?

Interesting... Hmmmnnnn....

Food for thought...

I think that's for practicality reasons where they want all to be able to read moderators posts when moderators have to moderate (can I use that word any more times in one sentence?). Just a guess.