Multiple deaths diving off NC coast May 10, 2020?

[johndiver999]

Reasonable question. A couple of thoughts:

Most regulators will breathe reasonably well when inverted. They will breathe 'wet', but they are still functional, IF the diver is not panicked. Irrespective of the discharge style, the mouthpiece orientation is probably a bigger issue. When the second stage is put in the mouth upside down, the mouthpiece often doesn't fit as well, and it is easier to ingest water.

As much as I hate to speculate, I will offer the opinion that panic may have been an important factor, both in putting the second stage in upside down, and in the ingestion of sea water. I don't know that for fact. We will really never know.

I agree, but if a diver has already spit her regulator and swam a looong way to get to buddy, there is a huge propensity to stick the reg in and inhale as hard and fast as possible. Once the water shoots down your throat and choking starts, you have only moments to recover. Breathing "wet" could be fatal if the diver is already desperate, choking and borderline panicked. So to say the regulator "still functions" upside down is true, but may not be relevant in that type of situation.

The actual video would probably be dreadful, but would answer a few questions.

However the description of what the video shows provides a very simple and easy to understand scenario. Things went down down hill in a few moments and without additional reserve in the husband's tank, the situation quickly became unrecoverable.

Also, if they were actively spearfishing and swimming or even stalking fish and deliberately trying to breathe less (so as not to scare the fish), then the diver can much more quickly succumb to a deprivation of air supply - compared to a diver who is entirely relaxed and moving along casually.

 

[johndiver999]

It’s not hard to blow through a good sized tank (ex. HP100 or HP120) if you’re fairly active during a dive at that depth. As they were hunting...I’m guessing their gas burn rate was higher than a typical dive at that depth.

My two cents...at that depth and while hunting or fossil collecting (common off NC)...every buddy pair should have at a minimum one pony bottle. Sure...you don’t need it if “you plan your dive and dive your plan,” but if one person doesn’t, blows through their gas, panics, and has to go on their buddy’s gas while on bottom...you may end up with this unfortunate outcome.
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If two people are carrying spearguns and both are actively hunting, then the idea that only ONE diver in a pair needs a pony bottle makes little sense to me. If both divers have shot a large fish and are actively trying to subdue it (and are also trying to look out for sharks) it is entirely unreasonable to depend upon either diver to have sufficient situational awareness to be able to immediately supply air from their air supply.

Spearfishing is probably the ultimate "distraction". The diver can have their hands under a ledge, the fish is beating them in the face with the tail and the diver's head is entirely engulfed in a huge plume of literally zero visibility water. You can't depend on someone in that situation to be a viable source of redundant air supply.

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

If two people are carrying spearguns and both are actively hunting, then the idea that only ONE diver in a pair needs a pony bottle makes little sense to me. If both divers have shot a large fish and are actively trying to subdue it (and are also trying to look out for sharks) it is entirely unreasonable to depend upon either diver to have sufficient situational awareness to be able to immediately supply air from their air supply.

Spearfishing is probably the ultimate "distraction". The diver can have their hands under a ledge, the fish is beating them in the face with the tail and the diver's head is entirely engulfed in a huge plume of literally zero visibility water. You can't depend on someone in that situation to be a viable source of redundant air supply.

Exactly. That’s why I put “at a minimum” one per pair. My personal opinion is that everyone should carry one in that situation, but I didn’t want to get on a soapbox about it in this thread.

When I dove there, it was solo. You were on your own to sort out how you wanted to dive. Ex. I had a pony (AL40).

 

[Colliam7]

Regarding the primary donate: I understand that this technique was developed and found to be optimal for a very specific user case: diving in caves, in narrow passages, where a very long hose is the only way of supplying air to the buddy, and in a team approach where all the divers are trained and equipped in the same way (and are high-level tech divers). I agree that this is the best way in these circumstances. . . . But consider a more common case: recreational unexperienced divers, employing a primary with not-so-long hose, which of course is routed "correctly" for the owner, but comes out to be "wrong" (upside down) when given to the buddy. In such case, I think it is better to have a dedicated "buddy reg", on your wrong shoulder, with a longer hose than your primary, and ready to become correctly oriented when donated. This is NOT your alternate air source. On my cylinder I use a standard reg (primary plus AAS), both routed correctly for me. And, on the second post, I mount another separate reg, which is the one designated to be donated (and NOT to be used by me as an alternate air source).

It may ultimately be best to split off the 'primary donate' discussion to another thread. But, since it has been raised in the context of THIS accident, as a possible contributing factor, I will respond in this thread.

First: I do not know the specific hose lengths being used by the divers in this accident. I do not know if the divers considered themselves to be using 'primary donate', or if donation of the husband's primary was the result of the OOA diver reaching for it. I do not know if they practiced alternate air source use routinely, or if ever. As I said earlier, I don't think the hose lengths, or 'style' of donation were the 'issue' in the outcome. I think failure to monitor gas supply (by BOTH divers, according to Anthony's summary of the video evidence in post #147), and panic, and procedural / physical errors in the exchange were the issue. That is the primary lesson we should learn in my opinion.

Second: any procedure, and configuration, must be familiar to both divers involved, and panic can render any procedure and configuration useless.

Since the accident did involve an attempt to share air, it is not unreasonable to discuss the issue of how best to share air. 'Primary donate' is both a procedure and a supporting gear configuration. The procedure is something that should be regularly practiced, so that it is fluid, facile and timely in execution. The gear configuration involves optimal hose lengths and optimal second stage performance,

I will fully agree, that donation of a second stage on a short hose, whether it is the primary or alternate, is problematic. So, when a diver adopts the practice of 'primary donate', s/he must also equip themselves to do that efficiently, effectively and safely.

In what has come to be viewed as the 'standard' regulator configuration, the primary second stage is usually attached to a 32 - 36" hose. The alternate second stage is usually attached to a 40" hose. That extra length allows for some flexibility when sharing air, as the 'donated' second stage is attached to a hose long enough to allow for comfortable positioning in the mouth of the OOA diver. Notably, the hose is still routed over the donor diver's right shoulder, and and it must be turned 180 degrees to 'face' the OOA diver, when the two divers are oriented 'face to face'. If the primary second stage is donated, the 32" hose may require the divers hold each other even closer, so that the second stage will stay in the OOA diver's mouth without issue. If the two divers are not panicked, and execute the donation of a second stage in a deliberate and conscious manner, even a 32" hose length can work effectively.

I can take a 'standard' regulator set-up, and configure it for primary donate, by using the second stage, on the longer hose, as my primary regulator, and putting the alternate second stage, on the shorter hose, in a position where I can quickly and effectively access it after I donate the second stage in my mouth to an OOA diver. I prefer that position to be on a bungee necklace, under my chin, where I can almost put it in my mouth simply by turning my head down. I always know exactly where it is during a dive. I do NOT have to change hose lengths to make this work. And, I teach divers this practice. I also teach them that they should have two equivalent (in terms of performance) second stages rather than a 'good' primary and a cheap, needlessly de-tuned, lower performance alternate. The extra cost of a good alternate is, frankly, trivial in the grand scheme of things. (And, I consider the excuse that I sometimes hear from divers - 'I can't afford the extra cost' is nonsense.)

Primary donate' is sometimes, unfortunately, also equated with a 'long hose' configuration. It does not have to be. Yes, a long hose configuration with primary donation evolved from cave diving, and allows for in-line swimming through restrictions. But, it can also be used for, and has value in, recreational diving. I have used a long primary hose (7') for years for all of my recreational diving, as has my wife. It is an easy configuration. It is very easy to donate, it is very easy to orient the donated second stage without any 'torqueing' of the hose. And, she and I practice it on EVERY (single, solitary) dive we do together, for at least a few minutes - that is how easy it is to use. It allows us to easily swim side-by-side during dives, when we are sharing air.

Adding a third LP hose, routed over your left shoulder, and a third second stage, is fine, if that works for you. I don't see the need, and I don't see it as being particularly streamlined, but I certainly won't say it is wrong. It is certainly not a commonplace configuration, but as long as you brief your buddy, that shouldn't be a problem. Yes, if it comes over your left shoulder, AND the hose still is attached to the right side of the second stage, it won't have to be turned 180 degrees, and that is a benefit. I personally want to keep my left shoulder space as clean as possible, so my inflator hose is the only item coming over the shoulder. But, if you choose to put that third hose there, and you can easily and quickly deploy the second stage, and manage your inflator hose without hindrance, that is great.

 

[scubadada]

Dives like this are frequently executed, both successfully and safely, using an AL80. For me, this dive, using 30%, would be NDL limited, only 20 something minutes, depending on exact depth.

Please be aware of your own limitations and please, please monitor your gas and NDL

 

[johndiver999]

Another thought....It is easy to assume that both diver's failed to reserve sufficient air to ascend safely. However, after the wife started choking and having difficulty, either of the divers could have tried pressing the purge button to try to resolve the issue. If that occured, then any reserve supply would be very quickly lost - even if it might have been adequate under more favorable circumstances. That question would probably be discernable from a head mounted camera and the audio.

I don't know that the length of a regulator hose has a clear relationship to the upside down second stage.

 

[Angelo Farina]

I don't know that the length of a regulator hose has a clear relationship to the upside down second stage.

It can be a problem only if the hose is very short, so that there is not hose length enough for making the hose to come from the right side of the second stage.
I experienced this at beginning of my carrier, when I had to get air from my wife's primary (and only) reg, equipped with a short hose: placing it my my mouth correctly oriented, while facing each other and swimming up, was truly difficult...
After that accident (or near miss) we both purchased a complete second reg, and started mounting it on the left post of our tanks. The hose was still short (the standard one Scubapro was supplying at the time, it was 1979).
But thanks to the rotating turret of the MK5, mounted with turret up, it was possible to use the secondary reg either as an alternate air source for the owner, or as an emergency reg for the buddy, routing the hose on the left shoulder to share air, if required .
At the time, my BCD was the Fenzee collar you see on my avatar, so the left shoulder had no hose from the BCD.
When we started working as dive masters and instructors in resorts, in 1985, we were given a complete Cressi regulator (and we were mandated to use it, at least the second stage, for contractual reasons). Of course we did consider it inferior to our SP 109+MK5, so we added this yellow Cressi 2nd stage, with his long-than-normal yellow hose, to our standard configuration of two MK5 and two 109.
As these were always packed-group dives, with one of us leading the group (of 6 divers max, arranged in pairs) and the other closing the group, during the briefing we did always explain that in case of an OOA situation the best choice was to search for one of us, and not to ask air to the buddy. And that the reg to reach was the yellow Cressi, with the long yellow hose, on our left shoulder.
In 5 years of activity I had at least 3 or 4 cases of OOA divers, always giving them this 3rd dedicated reg without any problems.
My wife had many more cases, perhaps 12, and again everything always worked flawlessy. So I think that, for a DM, this is the correct way. It must also be said that we were using tanks with 150% the capacity of the tanks given to customers, so we were quite confident to always have enough air to share. This was particularly true for my wife, as she breaths very little air. And this was the reason for which in most cases she was the one donating air...

Back OT: from the description of the video, it seems to me that the moment when things went really off rail was when the lady got the primary reg of the husband reversed, and she started coughing and vomiting.
Perhaps, if the reg was not upside down, she had managed to get a couple of full breaths, calming down, and the couple could ascend with a CESA thanks to the little air remaining. Probably this had resulted in some sort of DCS, but always better than drowning...
So, again, employing equipment better configured, the accident could have been not deadly for both.
This means either a primary reg properly set up for being donated (with a hose of proper length and properly routed), with a necklaced AAS for the donor, or an additional separate reg on the second post, with long hose and routed on the left shoulder, as I and my wife used to employ when diving with customers (or, later, with our sons).

 

[Anthony in NC]

Do we know how long they'd been and depths?

The ME report did not say.

 

[Anthony in NC]

Back OT: from the description of the video, it seems to me that the moment when things went really off rail was when the lady got the primary reg of the husband reversed, and she started coughing and vomiting.
Perhaps, if the reg was not upside down, she had managed to get a couple of full breaths, calming down, and the couple could ascend with a CESA thanks to the little air remaining. Probably this had resulted in some sort of DCS, but always better than drowning...

Carla and James were both master divers, they were plenty competent. So you;re probably right. She may have panicked when there was water in the reg instead of air.

I had never thought of that until this incident. I didn't even know that some regs filled with water upside down. I've been "laying on the bottom" on my back before and noted my reg was breathing a lot harder, and the service guy told me that was due to the way it was designed, something about the way the water pressure was pushing against the bottom instead of the top. Maybe it doesn't flood if the reg is on your mouth and has some back pressure on it. I'm going to try Thursday on my dive and see if I remove my reg, and insert it upside down, if I get air or water. That'd be a nice detail about my gear to know regardless.

if nothing else I earned out of this, it's if I'm ever in an OOA situtation, to check that the reg is right side up when I shove it in my mouth so I'm not breathing water.

 

[Ayisha]

...Perhaps, if the reg was not upside down, she had managed to get a couple of full breaths, calming down, and the couple could ascend with a CESA thanks to the little air remaining...

Handing someone a reg upside down can happen with any configuration, whether the reg is on a standard length or longer hose, whether it's primary or secondary donate or whether someone takes it from a donor.

I bought all of my equipment (except tanks and weights) before I got certified, including a Dacor Viper octopus. In my pool sessions (in 2001), I kept being handed my buddy's reg upside down and learned to recognize and orient it right away. When I did some research into buying gear, the Viper (later became Mares) was advertised as working rightside or upside down, venting bubbles sideways not obstructing vision, came with a yellow hose, etc., and I thought it was a great idea. It came in handy several times over the years.

What I didn't like about the standard octopus length was the annoying s-curve of the hose if both divers weren't face to face, such as when swimming side by side back to a line or entry point. For one or both divers, the reg felt like it was pulling out of the mouth and you could not turn your head to look to the side. My next configuration included a long hose. Your 3rd hose configuration may solve that s-curve issue, but it is of course not one of the well known configurations.

When trained to primary donate with a long hose, we practice incessantly and hand the reg over in the correct orientation in one smooth movement. When held and performed correctly, the reg could be oriented only in the upright orientation. As they say, "you don't only practice until you get it right. You practice until you can't get it wrong."