Multiple deaths diving off NC coast May 10, 2020?

[AfterDark]

IMO opinion anyone diving off NC needs to make a certain amount of commitment in time and money to own and learn how to use the tools that common sense would require. Most of the "good" wrecks are at least 25 miles off shore and twice that distance. I'm not sure redundant air is one of those tools, but anything that can keep you on the wreck, or get you seen and/or heard on the surface is what you want to carry diving that far off shore. IMO if redundant gas is desired it seems having redundancy "built in" in the form of small doubles either manifolded or IDs is more practicable, no pony to sling and more gas available.

 

[Rose Robinson]

This past Saturday, I dived the Aeolus and the Suloide. Before that was 4 days at the end of May. If I didn't miss any, I've got 82 dives on wrecks out of Morehead City in the last 5+ years. This year has been light because of COVID and a shoulder/neck injury.

Nobody has asked to see my log in quite a while. They know me at Olympus and know my credentials well enough. But, when I take new people, I know that they do ask them questions about their recent experience.

I am instructor. I teach Advanced and Deep. But, I do not agree with your judgment. I *might*, if I learned more about the 2 divers in question. But, I am not an instructor who believes that the only way anyone can learn something or do it safely is by taking a class that produces a C card. So, just because someone may only have an OW and a Nitrox card and nothing else does not AUTOMATICALLY mean (to me) that they are not well qualified and competent to do an ocean dive to 115 feet. C cards, in and of themselves, don't mean a lot outside of a courtroom, I think.

Stuart,

Certification means they took a course, read, comprehended the theory, successfully answered all the chapter questions, successfully passed the exam, successfully passed all the underwater drills, successfully understood the need to be properly outfitted for ''deep'' dives. ''That's defendable in court"!

Regardless of this particular set of terrible circumstances, proper training, certification or lack thereof, could very well be the ''root cause reason'' for making it back to the boat ladder, or not.

Please forgive me, I don't mean to be critical, but what kind of an instructor believes that not being ''certified'' is a good idea.

When I interview a candidate for employment, the first thing on my ''want'' list is to review credentials, the diploma does not give me an intelligence reading of the applicant, practical application will sort through that, but it certainly does give me a reading that there is a ''foundation'', especially if it's accompanied by high mark report cards.

There is a wooden shipwreck in Ontario Canada, which by the way, I hope to dive one day, called the Arabia, It lies at the bottom of Georgian Bay, basically the same depth as the U-352. More divers have died on the Arabia than any other single ship wreck anywhere, including the Andrea Doria. When you look back at some of the investigation reports, one thing becomes glaringly clear, a lot of the victims, should never have been on the wreck in the first place, and that's your 119 feet.

Pretty basic stuff, no ticky/no washy.

Rose.

 

[Rose Robinson]

I have mixed feelings about this. First and foremost each diver is ultimately responsible for his or her dive. The best the dive op can do is a basic screen for certification/experience but as we all know a card does not equate competence and 1000 logs under benign/routine conditions does not prove experience.

Do I think there was complacency? Yes. Do I think there was inadequate gear. Yes. Can the dive op monitor for complacency? Maybe if they dive enough with the op to establish a pattern. Can the dive op mandate gear? This! I think here may be where there is obvious room for improvement.

UN,

I was mandated gear by the dive operator my first trip down to Morehead City/Beaufort. Luckily I had everything, and my cylinders/bailout assembly exceeded the operators minimum requirements.

At the time of my first trip, I had lots of north Pacific, and international ocean/sea experience, and on the first day I was still accompanied/paired up with the operator's DM, we had a fabulous day.

There is lots the operators can do to ensure the safety/comfort of their customers, if they elect to do it.

Rose.

 

[stuartv]

Stuart,

Certification means they took a course, read, comprehended the theory, successfully answered all the chapter questions, successfully passed the exam, successfully passed all the underwater drills, successfully understood the need to be properly outfitted for ''deep'' dives. ''That's defendable in court"!

I think you have a vast overestimation of what is actually REQUIRED in order to get a Deep certification card. Have you read the course standards for that? From any agency? The actual standards for the SDI Deep specialty are in a PDF that is linked at the bottom of this page:

SDI Deep Diver Course - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI

Like I said earlier, just because a person has a card for it does not assure me of pretty much anything, regarding their proficiency as a diver or qualification to dive to 119 feet. If I know the instructor they had, then I MIGHT infer something from their card. Otherwise, as far as I know, they could have gotten their Advanced card by doing a very quick bounce to 61' in a quarry somewhere. Or their Deep card after a quick bounce to 95' in a quarry. I use those examples because I know of numerous people who got those cards in that way.

Please forgive me, I don't mean to be critical, but what kind of an instructor believes that not being ''certified'' is a good idea.

Where did I ever say that? Please provide a quote.

"It's a good idea to not get certified before you go deep diving." Nope. Never said that.

What I said was that taking a 1 day class and doing 2 dives (where absolutely minimal skills are required) with an instructor is one approach. But, I think there are other ways to learn to safely dive deeper than 60' that don't require taking a formal class. So, I would not AUTOMATICALLY assume that a person who does not have an Advanced or a Deep card is unqualified. My dad does not have a single C card of any type. But, his Chief had him doing dives to 200', when he was in the Navy. You reckon he is unqualified to dive deeper than 60' because he doesn't have an Advanced or a Deep card?

 

[uncfnp]

At the time of my first trip, I had lots of north Pacific, and international ocean/sea experience, and on the first day I was still accompanied/paired up with the operator's DM, we had a fabulous day.

The equivalent of a check out dive. I am generally not a fan of this but sometimes necessary. But really difficult to implement on larger boats and for regions where divers come for a day or two of diving and not a week or longer.

 

[Rose Robinson]

I think you have a vast overestimation of what is actually REQUIRED in order to get a Deep certification card. Have you read the course standards for that? From any agency? The actual standards for the SDI Deep specialty are in a PDF that is linked at the bottom of this page:

SDI Deep Diver Course - SDI | TDI | ERDI | PFI

Like I said earlier, just because a person has a card for it does not assure me of pretty much anything, regarding their proficiency as a diver or qualification to dive to 119 feet. If I know the instructor they had, then I MIGHT infer something from their card. Otherwise, as far as I know, they could have gotten their Advanced card by doing a very quick bounce to 61' in a quarry somewhere. Or their Deep card after a quick bounce to 95' in a quarry. I use those examples because I know of numerous people who got those cards in that way.



Where did I ever say that? Please provide a quote.

"It's a good idea to not get certified before you go deep diving." Nope. Never said that.

What I said was that taking a 1 day class and doing 2 dives (where absolutely minimal skills are required) with an instructor is one approach. But, I think there are other ways to learn to safely dive deeper than 60' that don't require taking a formal class. So, I would not AUTOMATICALLY assume that a person who does not have an Advanced or a Deep card is unqualified. My dad does not have a single C card of any type. But, his Chief had him doing dives to 200', when he was in the Navy. You reckon he is unqualified to dive deeper than 60' because he doesn't have an Advanced or a Deep card?

Stuart,

You didn't say that either.

You said: ''I am not an instructor, who believes that the only way to learn something, or to do it safely, is by taking a class that produces a C-Card.

On the subject of ''Scuba Diving'', what is your accepted/recognized/safe alternative?

Military training is comparing apples and oranges, military fighter pilots don't have commercial jet pilot's licenses either.

I feel quite confident that your father did have military dive training to allow him to safely dive to 200', in order to complete the mission, and return safely to the surface, .

Military operations have absolutely nothing to do with recognized, recreational dive training.

Sorry Stuart, if you want to argue a white dog black, and then argue him white again, you'll have to find someone else to argue with.

Rose.

 

[stuartv]

I feel quite confident that your father did have military dive training to allow him to safely dive to 200', in order to complete the mission, and return safely to the surface, .

That is not correct, either.

My dad learned to dive when he was 14 (so, roughly 1959). From a friend of his dad's. Not a formal class that produced a C card. I'm originally from Tallahassee, FL, where my dad grew up. Once he learned to dive, he did a lot of diving in the north FL blackwater rivers and caves. He brought up a lot of artifacts and fossils from those rivers. Some of which are on display in museums there or in the care of the Smithsonian Natural History museum. All, without any training that produced a C card.

When he was in the Navy, he was assigned to a ship and took his own scuba gear with him on the ship. When his Chief saw his gear, he said "you're a scuba diver? Good. I have some jobs for you."

After I got tech training, I was pondering my dad's experience and the fact that he doesn't (to this day) have any C cards, so I can't take him out on a commercial charter boat. I asked him "how deep did you ever go when doing stuff your Chief assigned you?" He told me the deepest he ever dived, for an assigned task, was about 200'. This was back in the mid-60s. I asked him, "when you did that, you had to have done decompression stops on the way up. Did the Navy give you any dive training to learn to do that?" His answer "nope. I was not a Navy Diver. They didn't give me any dive training." I asked, "so, how do you learn how to do the required decompression?" His answer, in typical fashion for my dad, "I got the Navy diving manual, and I read it."

 

[Barnaby'sDad]

That is not correct, either.

My dad learned to dive when he was 14 (so, roughly 1959). From a friend of his dad's. Not a formal class that produced a C card. I'm originally from Tallahassee, FL, where my dad grew up. Once he learned to dive, he did a lot of diving in the north FL blackwater rivers and caves. He brought up a lot of artifacts and fossils from those rivers. Some of which are on display in museums there or in the care of the Smithsonian Natural History museum. All, without any training that produced a C card.

When he was in the Navy, he was assigned to a ship and took his own scuba gear with him on the ship. When his Chief saw his gear, he said "you're a scuba diver? Good. I have some jobs for you."

After I got tech training, I was pondering my dad's experience and the fact that he doesn't (to this day) have any C cards, so I can't take him out on a commercial charter boat. I asked him "how deep did you ever go when doing stuff your Chief assigned you?" He told me the deepest he ever dived, for an assigned task, was about 200'. This was back in the mid-60s. I asked him, "when you did that, you had to have done decompression stops on the way up. Did the Navy give you any dive training to learn to do that?" His answer "nope. I was not a Navy Diver. They didn't give me any dive training." I asked, "so, how do you learn how to do the required decompression?" His answer, in typical fashion for my dad, "I got the Navy diving manual, and I read it."

That doesn’t surprise me a bit. There’s a HUGE difference between the training received with an MOS/NEC/AFSC and what you’d receive for a “detail”/ unofficial tasking. Ex. I trained people to drive buses at one point. Was I a transportation guy? No. I was an aircrew member.

That and ~50 years ago...safety was not the priority that it is now. Ex. Your Dad’s Chief...10:1 odds he didn’t know about the safety concerns associated with deep diving. He was just thinking “I need a diver, you can dive, so we’re good.”

 

[poseident]

The heat is certainly rising in this thread....I'm glad we all care so much about safety that we're willing to pound the table a bit.....

We've covered a lot of theory, anecdotes, experiences, and opinions. I'm certain about one thing: Based on the information we have (and the accounts of those who had direct access to information), the only way that dive could have ended without an accident of some sort is if at least ONE of the buddies had not been critically low on air... If both had managed their gas well, they'd be on here with us debating the points of some other accident.

Even if the regulator donation had gone off without a hitch, it sounds like the team probably would have run out of air on ascent. Maybe they'd have calmed down enough to drop weight and take the DCS hit risk to avoid drowning. Maybe not.

It was a terrible, but avoidable, scenario those two found themselves in. They didn't get the chance to learn from their mistake(s), but we do.

On to moldable mouthpieces....I used to be a big fan. But I had two incidents with them. First incident: Primary share exercise--buddy literally could not get my mouthpiece into her mouth. On 3rd attempt we terminated the exercise safely. After that I started leaving the tie-wrap off the mouthpiece so I could at least yank it off if that happened again. This generation of ComfoBites was quite rigid, and required work to get them on. The tie wasn't really necessary. Second incident: Primary share exercise. Showed mouthpiece and warned buddy before hand. Exercise begins--instant gag and vomit--starts to bolt. I yank off the mouthpiece and freeflow reg in his face and get his primary recovered. Mind you I'm blowing bubbles this whole time, as I'm using both hands for the freeflow and to control the diver. I needed a third one to retrieve my Air2. Thankfully I started with a nice BIG breath

After that, I went back to Comfo-bites. It wasn't worth the hassle.

 

[johndiver999]

...

Based on the information we have (and the accounts of those who had direct access to information), the only way that dive could have ended without an accident of some sort is if at least ONE of the buddies had not been critically low on air... If both had managed their gas well, they'd be on here with us debating the points of some other accident.

Even if the regulator donation had gone off without a hitch, it sounds like the team probably would have run out of air on ascent. Maybe they'd have calmed down enough to drop weight and take the DCS hit risk to avoid drowning. Maybe not.

It was a terrible, but avoidable, scenario those two found themselves in. They didn't get the chance to learn from their mistake(s), but we do.

On to moldable mouthpieces....I used to be a big fan. But I had two incidents with them. First incident: Primary share exercise--buddy literally could not get my mouthpiece into her mouth. On 3rd attempt we terminated the exercise safely. After that I started leaving the tie-wrap off the mouthpiece so I could at least yank it off if that happened again. This generation of ComfoBites was quite rigid, and required work to get them on. The tie wasn't really necessary. Second incident: Primary share exercise. Showed mouthpiece and warned buddy before hand. Exercise begins--instant gag and vomit--starts to bolt. I yank off the mouthpiece and freeflow reg in his face and get his primary recovered. Mind you I'm blowing bubbles this whole time, as I'm using both hands for the freeflow and to control the diver. I needed a third one to retrieve my Air2. Thankfully I started with a nice BIG breath

After that, I went back to Comfo-bites. It wasn't worth the hassle.

So you describe a scenario were there was a botched regulator exchange and you DELIBERATELY freeflowed the regulator in an attempt to resolve the situation, is that correct?

Are you 100% sure that neither of the victims in this accident did something similar?