Ginnie Springs diver missing - Florida

[FullThrottle]

Not trying to be difficult, and asking (sincerely) for information: who is/are 'they'?

"They" is the people who are afraid of being sued by ambulance chasing slip and fall bottom feeding lawyers.

 

[Manatee Diver]

"They" is the people who are afraid of being sued by ambulance chasing slip and fall bottom feeding lawyers.

The only way to seriously prevent that from happening is not to get involved at all. You can be sued at anytime by anyone, even if you are protected by various liability shields (like good Samaritan laws or liability waivers).

But IMO IUCRR or the any other organization that wants to do this would have little to fear as long as they stick to reporting facts. Speculation and opinion is what gets you in trouble with that sort of stuff. But even then as long as you make it clear where the facts end and the opinion starts you are generally protected. It is when you blur the line, that the lawsuits start flying if there is a sufficient amount of money involved.

But cave divers don't have any money, it all goes toward cave diving.

 

[Cert1967]

You might want to test what I say by doing something simple. On your way home or going to work if you see an auto accident stop!!! Go over to the Trooper, Deputy or Police officer and give him your internet handle, then demand the who, what, where, when, why and how of the accident so you can post that info to save yourself and other motorists from a similar fate. ..... Let me know how that works out for you."

Well the LEO may have been a little busy at that moment.

But a records request - properly made - in Florida should produce the 'stuff'. Florida has some of the broadest 'sunshine' law/regs in the country. For instance, the Florida court system makes almost all records available online at no cost.

Statutes & Constitution :View Statutes : Online Sunshine

FS 119.01 General state policy on public records

1. 
   

It is the policy of this state that all state, county, and municipal records are open for personal inspection and copying by any person. Providing access to public records is a duty of each agency.

1. 
   

Do you live in Florida?

An example of a < 1min search for a Broward County traffic case - see below - its a speeding infraction, 86 in a 70

State of Florida Vs. Sotis, Peter N
Broward County Case Number: 00074649TI40A
State Reporting Number: 062000TR074649A88840
Court Type: Traffic and Misdemeanor
Case Type: Traffic Infractions
Filing Date: 07/28/2000​

PUBLIC RECORDS LAW--APPLICABILITY TO CRIME AND ARREST REPORTS

Here's what Ashley has to say

Advisory Legal Opinion - Public records; active police cases

As I am of the view that crime and arrest reports are not exempt from the inspection provisions of the Public Records Law, it is irrelevant whether such reports relate to active, ongoing cases or whether the cases to which they relate have been closed for whatever reason. Relative to the issue of active or inactive files, it is only active criminal intelligence or investigative information--as defined and delimited by the provisions of s. 119.011(3), F. S.--which is exempt from the Public Records Law; and, since crime and arrest reports are to be considered neither criminal intelligence nor criminal investigative information, their status as active or inactive is immaterial.​

FDLE says
Public Records

F.S. 406. 11, Death must be investigated by the Medical Examiner whenever a person dies (subset listed), by accident

All Medical Examiner autopsy reports are automatically sent to the State Attorney's Office{406.13. F.S.} and the investigating law enforcement agency upon completion. Medical Examiner case files are public record, 119.011(1)F.S. Any person may obtain a copy.​

 

[wgw04024]

Well I guess that settles that...

 

[The Chairman]

So maybe we need a person that will do this on an ongoing basis and post the results here?

 

[mderrick]

I've been looking at rebreather accidents for many years, and involved in several investigations. IMO there is little useful to the rebreather diving community at large to be learned from examination of the public record. The focus of law enforcement (in the US) is to determine there was no 'foul play' involved, and once the determination is made it's not murder then the responsibility for digging much deeper is going to pass to someone else. The coroners job (sometimes called a medical examiner in the US) in these circumstances is usually just to name a cause of death.... typically "drowning" but sometimes if the underlying health condition was the obvious cause (for example heart disease that resulted in MI) then the cause of death will be reported as the medical condition. As one coroner told me, "If there is water in the lungs, they drowned." Given the burdens of their jobs, these officials are unlikely to investigate further. A simple, relatively clear, statement of cause is all they need to provide; technical investigation in the cause of rebreather accidents is not their job nor are most of them qualified to do so even if there was incentive.

It's become increasingly difficult to provide expert information to law enforcement and coroners in my experience, in part because they are gun shy of the optics of communicating with the experts. Further, increasingly the experts don't want to be involved either. The reasons are many but the reality is that litigation more often than not will eventually occur because liability insurance payouts may require it. The court cases are, surprisingly to many, not about determining a "cause" but rather apportioning liability to those best able to pay. Thus, I've observed parties on both sides of the same case seeming to obscure facts and discredit evidence. One tactic employed by attorneys is to attack the evidence by discrediting the sources, such as the recovery divers and experts advising law enforcement. In some cases by naming in the lawsuit itself those involved in the collection of the evidence and accusing them of "spoliation of evidence". IMO, looking to official records or filing a lawsuit to learn the cause of a rebreather dive accident is an oxymoron.

When experts look at rebreather accidents, we almost always find long (some times amazingly long) error chains that include almost unbelievable lapses in judgement by the victim and typically by many others as well. But I've never found anything that is going to result in an OMG moment where some press release warning divers of a new here-to-fore unknown cause of rebreather deaths. Like open-circuit diving accidents, the causes of closed-circuit diving accidents are now understood. That's not to minimize the loss of life or the investigation in to the accident, but simply to point out that we already have the knowledge to dramatically reduce rebreather accidents. We simply lack, to some extent, the will to put that knowledge in to action in order to save lives. For example, we know checklists save lives yet there is still a large body of rebreather divers that don't consistently use checklists and even some well respected rebreather divers that argue against the use of checklists.

All of this pales in comparison to the toll these fatal rebreather accidents take... the victim's life of course, but also their family, the recovery divers, the diving experts, and the diving community at large. I have seen first hand the often overlooked toll it takes on the lives and careers of the government officials whose job it is to deal with the aftermath of rebreather fatalities.

 

[tmassey]

When experts look at rebreather accidents, we almost always find long (some times amazingly long) error chains that include almost unbelievable lapses in judgement by the victim and typically by many others as well. But I've never found anything that is going to result in an OMG moment where some press release warning divers of a new here-to-fore unknown cause of rebreather deaths. Like open-circuit diving accidents, the causes of closed-circuit diving accidents are now understood.

Sure. That’s also true in airplane accidents, and other such relatively routine causes of death. And in the case of airline deaths, their safety record is several orders of magnitude greater than scuba. Yet they still conduct detailed root cause analysis. Why? They’re never going to find a new and unique reason...

I can think of at least two reasons: one, sometimes they do. For example, 737 MAX. And for a second reason, that’s how they got their enviable safety record first place, and that’s how they keep it.

We simply lack, to some extent, the will to put that knowledge in to action in order to save lives.

You know what can help give people the will to put that knowledge into action? Knowing that the last 15 out of 20 deaths could’ve been prevented by ‘one weird trick’.

Root cause analysis is never about finding a unique reason. It’s merely about finding *the* reason, and what that can tell you, both about that one incident, and the obvious holes that the current training and reinforcement are *still* leaving.

Your example of checklists is an excellent one. It’s not the knowledge doesn’t exist. It’s that, in the mind of a majority of divers, the hassle of using a checklist every single time outweighs the risk. There’s probably not a magic wand that’s going to make checklists any easier. The only way to get that diver to understand is to clearly demonstrate to them just what the risk is. And how better to do that then by giving them example after example. But without the root cause analysis, all you have is anecdote. And that’s easy to ignore.

 

[tmassey]

Checklists are a personal thing, aren’t they? Isn’t it really up to the diver?


No capes! I mean, use the checklist!

See how much more powerful her argument was with a pile of incidents? The first one was simply laughed off. The second one was an argument of personal preference, the third one was blaming the victim... It took five or six before the point was made.

And that is the value of root cause analysis and meaningful accident reports.

 

[tmassey]

Reflecting a little further, I realized I completely ignored your liability etc. argument.

It isn’t that I disagree with it in any way. I completely agree with it. And it’s easy for me to say “Get those reports out!“: I’m not the one involved, and I won’t be the one named in the lawsuit. I hate everything about that entire threat that hangs over the entire process.

So I don’t fault anyone for a desire to avoid liability, even if that means not getting involved, and therefore an accident report may not appear. I’m in no way trying to say that anyone has a right to demand that someone else put themselves at risk just for my own personal edification.

I just don’t understand how, as a separate argument, others can state that, just because we won’t learn anything unique that there’s no value to the exercise. As I’ve written before, the fact that the same thing comes up is in and of itself an extremely valuable fact that can be used to literally change peoples minds and potentially even save lives.

No capes!

 

[John the Pom]

William Shakespeare, Henry VI, Part 2 - Act 4, Scene 2?