Don't know what happened

[Storker]

Essentially, if someone mentions being nervous before a dive, and you say, "Don't worry--I'm a divemaster," then you have assumed a professional role, even though you are not being paid and have no contract, because the nervous diver is depending upon you as if you were in a professional role.

being a professional

I believe this illustrates rather well the basic difference between agencies. PADI is " professional" association of diving instructors, and PADI's main purpose is to make money. CMAS affiliated clubs are... clubs. Not for making money for the shareholders, but for providing a safe framework for people who want to dive.

If I am the dive leader on a club outing, or if I'm assisting on a class, the best I can hope for is a refund of some of my costs. I contribute my time for free, I'm not making any money from that. There isn't much "professional" about that.

 

[Storker]

Yes, as I said in the last reply (written before you wrote this), you have to screw up in some way to be liable.

Yep, and personally I'm fine with that. My issue was with how I understood @Edward3c , that I would be objectively liable just on the basis of my cert.

 

[boulderjohn]

I believe this illustrates rather well the basic difference between agencies. PADI is " professional" association of diving instructors, and PADI's main purpose is to make money. CMAS affiliated clubs are... clubs. Not for making money for the shareholders, but for providing a safe framework for people who want to dive.

If I am the dive leader on a club outing, or if I'm assisting on a class, the best I can hope for is a refund of some of my costs. I contribute my time for free, I'm not making any money from that. There isn't much "professional" about that.

I am not an attorney in the USA, and I am certainly not an attorney where you live. If I were you, I would look into this with an attorney before assuming any role of responsibility on a dive. CMAS itself may help you.

Remember, too, that in the case of a dive accident, the law in effect is the law where the accident occurs. When Tina Watson died in Australia, her husband Gabe pleaded guilty to manslaughter and spent a year in prison there because he violated a local law that does not exist in most places in the world, at least as it was explained to me. When his wife was struggling, he attempted to save her, but his attempt was incompetent. He was so incompetent, in fact, that people later claimed it was intentional. Under the law in that part of Australia, though, that did not matter. Apparently if a more skilled participant in a dangerous activity attempts a rescue, that attempt has to be competent. Watson held no professional certification. (I will happily be corrected by a more knowledgeable explanation.)

When he was later charged in the USA, the charges were dismissed because he was clearly incompetent, and competency in a rescue is not required here.

 

[Storker]

I am not an attorney in the USA, and I am certainly not an attorney where you live. If I were you, I would look into this with an attorney before assuming any role of responsibility on a dive. CMAS itself may help you.

Remember, too, that in the case of a dive accident, the law in effect is the law where the accident occurs. When Tina Watson died in Australia, her husband Gabe pleaded guilty to manslaughter and spent a year in prison there because he violated a local law that does not exist in most places in the world, at least as it was explained to me. When his wife was struggling, he attempted to save her, but his attempt was incompetent. He was so incompetent, in fact, that people later claimed it was intentional. Under the law in that part of Australia, though, that did not matter. Apparently if a more skilled participant in a dangerous activity attempts a rescue, that attempt has to be competent. Watson held no professional certification. (I will happily be corrected by a more knowledgeable explanation.)

When he was later charged in the USA, the charges were dismissed because he was clearly incompetent, and competency in a rescue is not required here.

Well, IMNSHO Gabe Watson earned what he got. If you (general "you") are going to claim outrageously misleading competence, I think you (again, general "you") deserve the fallout from that.

 

[Storker]

I am not an attorney in the USA, and I am certainly not an attorney where you live. If I were you, I would look into this with an attorney before assuming any role of responsibility on a dive. CMAS itself may help you.

Let it be said that to date, AFAIK no local diver serving as the designated dive leader on a club outing has so far been held liable for an accident unless gross negligence has been proved. No matter the outcome.

 

[Edward3c]

Yes, as I said in the last reply (written before you wrote this), you have to screw up in some way to be liable.

Unfortunately, with the ambulance chasers they don’t care if you’re liable or not to make a claim. If you don’t have insurance you need to fund your own defence to show you weren’t liable. It costs money even before the judge throws a case out.

 

[Angelo Farina]

Italy really disappoints me

Me too, with regards about how our courts work, or our elephantiac bureucratic apparatus. Not talking about taxation!
Luckily we have some good things, such as an excellent public health system, entirely free. Very good schools and universities. Nice towns, where life is easy and enjoying. Good weather. Wonderful natural landscapes.
Very nice sea, many opportunities for diving. Excellent food, wine, etc.. People who enjoy life, spending little time working and most time doing pleasant activities.
Most people feel the need of helping others, are involved in volunteering activities, and are not selfish.
So despite the big problems related to our crap judicial system and in general our terrible public administration, it is worth to live here.
However every year we see hundreths of thousands of clever youngsters emigrating to other countries, where finding a job is easier, and their qualifications are better appreciated than here.

 

[Edward3c]

Yep, and personally I'm fine with that. My issue was with how I understood @Edward3c , that I would be objectively liable just on the basis of my cert.

The U.K. is becoming a sue first society. Half the requests for information I get at work are from ‘no-win-no-fee’ lawyers. Most we formally reject, but it ties up resources responding. If we didn’t we would be explaining things to the Courts.

 

[boulderjohn]

Unfortunately, with the ambiance chasers

Well, I am an ambiance chaser myself, so I can't find fault.

 

[Scuba Client]

Was wondering if you did your DiveMaster training in a swimming pool or canal? I have heard that in Holland they do all their training in a pool.