Well I did it... New toys for me! And a couple of BP/Wings Questions.

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I may be visioning it wrong - but it sounds like a reel would be dangling a little bit. I have very big legs and in particular thighs that run together - I ware out trousers very quickly.

Sounds unconfortable to me - I can always give it a go because I don't have a scooter (I usually use that ring if I want to put my camera somewhere in a hurry) so I can give it a try if I ever get wet again! It's been toooooo long! I just hope TJO doesn't wimp out again on the 12th....

Jonathan
 
No, no... It doesn't hang down THAT far!

I have big thighs too and the spool/reel doesn't come anywhere close to going between your legs.

It sits on your butt. In fact, it almost sits in the small of your back. The butt D-ring should be as high as possible without interfering with the tank.

A completely assembled setup should place that reel squarely on your butt, and behind the tank, in the slipstream...
 
WreckWriter once bubbled...


Interesting. While I realize that you're a newly made expert since the weekend I wonder where you learned that a weightbelt goes over the harness. Last I heard it was the opposite. Has that thinking changed?

Please be careful about providing bad info such as recommending 30/30 in 165 feet of water. A DIRF does not qualify one as a trimix diver.

WW

WreckWriter, if I'm anything I'm a newbie DIR-F'pert and in my case the F does not stand for passing with Flying colors ... however, I am clear about some things though I may not have said it clearly. MHK said the crotchstrap should go under the weight belt so the weight remains ditchable. I know there are discussions on the board on weather it should be ditchable or not, but I'm just passing on what I was taught (and remember we were diving ocean). I found threading the crotch strap that way is a lot easier said than done - practically I found I needed to put my weight belt on first and then thread the crotch strap under it ... pain in the you know what and I'm getting an ACB ASAP.

As for being qualified as a trimix diver, perish the thought! If I gave that impression I sincerly withdraw it. However, I could swear what I said was over 100 feet they recommend going to 30/30 till ~165? Maybe that's way wrong, I couldn't remember the depth the mix switches and that's why I'm sure I put the question mark in.

~<//><
 
Ziggys_Friend once bubbled...

I'm getting an ACB ASAP.

...Apologies for stepping in here, but if I can offer just a tidbit... Slap me if you want me to shut up. You didn't ask my opinion. :D

Like you, I'm also a newbie. Even if I wasn't a newbie, I'd still profess to be one. There's always someone with more experience, more skills, and more expertise on the board. WW is probably one of them... He's been diving a long time and is respected for his expertise. Certainly he looks at us both as newbies, Ziggys_Friend, and rightly so.

Firstly, relative to weights... I, too, hate weight belts, for exactly the same reason you listed above. Some people on this board (UP in particular) have very authentic points about why not to have your weights integrated into your bp/wings (or other buoyancy device). They claim that keeping them separate is the way to go. That debate is pertinent here, but for the sake of trying to keep my notoriously long posts to a minimum, I'll save that debate for another time.

ACB systems are gently discussed in the DIR-F manual, and they are not necessarily frowned upon. However, I've observed that many people try to avoid ACB systems because they add to the bulk of the rig and prevent the addition of more useful tools such as a canister light or Halcyon "hard pocket." They also force you to "tuck" the long hose, which some people prefer to hooking under a light or pocket - I personally am not one of those people.

That said, if faced with the choice of diving with a weight belt or an ACB system, I'm in the same boat with you... I'd choose an ACB system, 'cause I hate weight belts (at least while wearing a scuba rig of some sort... I prefer to wear one when freediving. Then again, I also wear a snorkel when I freedive, too, but that's another story.)

However, there is a third option which seems to be the most popular with experienced divers, but requires a much more "in depth" approach to proper weighting and trim. No doubt it was addressed in your recent DIR-F course, and so you should be very familiar with it.

Imagine this... You purchase your ACB system, and install it on your rig. From that point on, you'll have four "modes" that your ACB will be in... One for salt water with a single tank, one for salt with doubles, and again for fresh with a single, and fresh with doubles. After some diving in all four circumstances, you will, no doubt, end up with a very good working knowlege of what, exactly, you need in terms of weight before setting foot in the water.

And what I see is that people then dial in their bp/wing system such that they need little to no ditchable with singles/fresh, and simply add the required weight through the use of STA's, channel weights, p-weights, light cannisters, and the like. When each of these are planned properly, you can easily mathematically figure when and how much ditchable weight you need (if at all, depending on what you're comfortable swimming up and whether or not you have redundant buoyancy in a drysuit. Redundant first stages either on a single or a manifold solves many problems too.)

I guess what I'm saying is that as per the discussions which no doubt happened on the Friday night of your DIR-F class, there are ways to solve the weighting problem that simultaneously get rid of the weight belt, avoid the purchase of expensive and bulky ACB systems, and still keep you safe. Some people (UP included) still dive with a little weight on a weight belt (or some other ditchable item) but since the weight is so minimal, the giant, obtrusive weight belt is reduced to a managable size.

Furthermore, if that weight belt is still desired (I know I would want to avoid it or minimize it personally) then it may be placed either underneath the crotchstrap or over the crotchstrap, depending on whether you're diving in a drysuit or a wetsuit.

I'm assuming that you're diving wet if your preference is to keep the belt over the crotchstrap.

My point is that there are other cheaper, simpler, more streamlined, and more DIR ways to do this besides either ACB's or weight belts.

...So with all due respect, and from newbie to newbie, I would recommend keeping your weight belt, and "dialing in" your bp/wing with the right amount of weight (not to mention minimizing the amount of weight you need anyway) so that this hatred for the weight belt is no longer an issue.

What I see from most DIR divers who have gone down this path before is that if they purchase the ACB system, they quickly end up continuing to "dial in" the weight of their bp/wing anyway, and the ACB system quickly becomes devalued.

And as soon as that happens, they don't feel that the extra bulk is worth it anyway.

Of course, that's just my $.02, which you didn't ask for anyway. :D
 
Ziggys_Friend once bubbled...

MHK said the crotchstrap should go under the weight belt so the weight remains ditchable. ~<//><

?? It's still ditchable with the crotchstrap over the weight belt. I can't imagine a situation where the extra 1/4-1/2 second to pull the weight belt from under the crotchstrap would matter. Plus, in my opinion, it adds a slight measure of security to KEEP the weightbelt from being accidentally dropped.
 
SeaJay

Thanks for your thoughts. As you say, the less weight carried around the waist the better and I'm all for that. Heck, I dove an LP 95 this weekend for just that reason, less weight and brought the weight belt because I wanted the chance to experience it and talk with MHK about this very issue before I decided if/what to buy.

Also, as you say, there are several scenarios that I have to deal with - fresh water vs. salt water - cave diving vs. ocean - wetsuit vs. dry suit etc. However, for lots of reasons, for the foreseeable future I see myself primarily diving a wetsuit in the ocean.


Hence, when I asked MHK what type tanks he thought I should be diving and why AL80's are the DIR of choice in the ocean it became clear. Given diving Ocean in a wetsuit, I don't have the dry suit as a "back-up" BC. I have to plan for the very real world of hurt that would come from being 100' down with a failed BC needing to swim up (let alone adding a OOA buddy etc.). Having been there/done that re DIR-F you know how challenging that type situation can be ... sheeeshk ... we did a simple little OOA combined with no face mask and our buoyancy went all to hell!

Bottom line, at least until I move to a dry suit I'm sticking with a reasonable amount of ditchable weight and I'd much rather put that on the harness than add the additional weight belt.

Admittedly I'm new at this, but I found the separate weight belt getting in my way a lot. The crotch strap issue was minor, but as I'm working to develop my muscle memory I just would rather have that out of the way and hence the ACB. If/when I switch to a dry suit I may well shift to another weighting system and eliminate ditchable weight, but that's then and this is now. Personally, I figure I'll always be able to resell a good ACB system on ebay should that time come.

~<//><

P.S. SeaJay, did I ever mention how much your post on your DIR-F experience inspired me to go? It's true, though having reread it I can't for the life of me figure why>!?@ Again, thanks.
 
raxafarian once bubbled...


?? It's still ditchable with the crotch strap over the weight belt. I can't imagine a situation where the extra 1/4-1/2 second to pull the weight belt from under the crotch strap would matter. Plus, in my opinion, it adds a slight measure of security to KEEP the weight belt from being accidentally dropped.

Fair argument and I can see your point. I think this is one of those items that I could argue either way and that ultimately leads me back to getting ACB weights.

Under the weight belt: It's almost certainly going to be more than 1/4-1/2 a second to pull that sucker free ... remember it's lead weight and we're talking about adding this little action at a time when I'm not likely to be thinking my clearest (hence the need for muscle memory, simplicity etc.). Also, what happens if I'm not the one doing the freeing of the weight - say I'm loosing it, OOA since my Wing was just punctured by a passing Great White and now I'm 100' down, buddy breathing and holding the two of us down like a rock ... well, you get the picture. Bottom line, IF we need to ditch the weight, time and simplicity rule.

Over the weight belt; I'm 100' down and "accidentally" free my weight belt ... that should be quite a rocket ride ... sure hope I'm heading into a hyperbolic chamber - do not pass go, do not collect $100. Believe me, I get the danger here too.

SO ... To me that leads me back to wanting weight that's secure yet ditchable. The fact that only 1/2 the weight in an ACB can be released at a time is a bonus.

Thoughts?

~<//><
 
Ziggys_Friend once bubbled...
Thoughts?

Well, This concept is DIMW - Doing it My Way.

Your weight serves two purposes. The first is offsetting the compression of your exposure suit. The second is to account for the weight of the gas in your tanks.

At the start of a dive with an AL80 tank, you should be 6 lbs overweight. Thus neutral with an empty tank at the end of the dive.

The average human lungs can displace ~9 lbs. So that means your lungs have a range of 4.5 negative to 4.5 lbs positive.

So if you carry enough ditchable weight to offset the air you used, then you will be setting your weight to something handleable during your ascent.

e.g. with aluminum 80s, carry 2 x 3lbs ditchable. If you have a problem with a full tank, you can ditch all 6 lbs. If you have a problem with a half tank, you can ditch 3 lbs.

This way you are never positive enough to not be able to control w/ your lungs.

I don't believe that a BC failure is an accident serious enough to accept the risks of an uncontrolled ascent.
 
now I'm struggling with this one - how do you get your weight belt over the crotch strap? The strap comes from the harness under your bum to the buckle area in the front which would mean you have to put the weight belt very low. Anyone got any pics of this?

As to the reel - I have my smbs in the small of my back so that sounds very uncomfortable putting my reels (usually dive with 2) there. I'd need to see and feel that to be convinced - next time I'm in the pool maybe.

Jonathan
 
If my memory serves correctly (and I will probably re watch it again today to confirm) in the DIR-3 Video George Irvine says something along the lines of "if you're wearing a wet suit you want the weight belt over the BP Harness and crotch strap so it's easily ditchable in an instant, if you're wearing a dry suit you want it under the harness and crotch strap because now you really don't want it to come off accidentally, and if you need to remove the extra time won't hurt you" Something along thoose lines...

Granted I've never read the DIR-F book, nor been to a class (I'm hoping I can take the class this summer while I'm up there near Fifth-D all summer) so I don't know this stuff well, just seem to recall that being what George said in the DIR3 Video. Check it if you want, I plan on doing so to see if I remembered it right or not.
 
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