The General Angst Over the PADI eLearning Program

[in_cavediver]

Seeing how one can earn a number of degrees from Indiana University, Purdue University, and Ball State University without ever entering a classroom, I would think this would the least of a Hoosier's worries.

Purdue offers online engineering classes. Isn't there is far more at risk there than an entry level scuba class?

People became upset when we gave up the horn book or filmstrips.

As a graduate student I could do all the reasearch in could ever need from my house. I never needed to visit a library or interact with books and librarians and the "old" (for lack of a better word) way of conducting research.

Times change as does the delivery of information.

Well, good analogy since I am actually somewhat involved in distance education at Purdue University. (Work for Mechanical Engineering in IT). Now, in those cases, classes/lectures are done via web broadcast or CCTV by the real faculty member. The equivalent to this would be your instructor providing pre-recorded or broadcast classroom sessions. The other component is a specific set aside time for call in q&a. Do you wish to make the arguement that the instructor is providing only what PADI's online elearning provides? Kinda goes against the 'your instructor will eloborate and bring real world expierence to this' component to the PADI system.

As I stated before, my largest concern is the disconnect of the dive instructor from the student. The point of classroom sessions is to expand above an beyond what the student gets from the book. Now, the student gets only what padi put online. I don't have a problem with the @home work being done online or with the digital OW book etc. I just believe there needs to be some in class work with an instructor.

 

[rakkis]

That just confirmed one of my fears about this. PADI has come up with a means for the 'diver factories' who operate on minimun stanards to spend even less time with students before sending them out the door.

I know some instructors go over and above and all that, I have just witnessed to many of the bare minimum classes. With that, when I look at training agencies, I look at the minimum standards required.

Given the lack of a required formal classroom session (other than a quiz), I think this is a horrible idea.

I do not believe this is a valid point in the context you present. A "diver factory" is already spending as little time as possible in the classroom. I.e., They go through the knowledge reviews, give a half *** explanation of the right answer only if people missed the question, then moved on. They could be done in this fashion in about 30 mins per KR if you really want to.

Moving the classroom to the student's own time will only enhance learning. (In the context you present). Also, giving more time for the students to dive more once they get to their location.

 

[J.R.]

One more thought on e-learning... in most of the examples where folks have said, "I use it... (insert context here)" the context of their instruction is based on having some foundational knowledge before hand.

It would seem to me more prudent to assume that ANY OW student comes to diving with zero foundational experience (as relates to SCUBA) and therefore has little basis on which to be the final judgement of what they may or may not need or what mode of instruction will be 'best for them'...

... and then there's the thought that "today's student may well be tomorrow's instructor"... so, what kind of attitudes are we developing?

"Being A professional" and "being professional" are not the same thing...

A "diver factory" is already spending as little time as possible in the classroom. I.e., They go through the knowledge reviews, give a half *** explanation of the right answer only if people missed the question, then moved on. They could be done in this fashion in about 30 mins per KR if you really want to.

Wouldn't disagree... but this suggests to me that the problem lies with the certifying agencies administration of their program and not with the material. So is e-learning nothing more than a white flag waving on the banner pole of resignation? It sure makes it *look* like PADI is acknowledging shortcomings in its existing program and its inability to take any kind of corrective action... so it does what every middle manager does when the pressure goes on... 'REORGANIZE'... and then put out a lot of gloss explaining why the new stuff is just like the old stuff only BETTER!!! To me, it's like saying... "Hey... yer' already shafted... but now you get to get shafted in a whole new way!!!"

Again... HOW ARE WE MAKING BETTER DIVERS????

Moving the classroom to the student's own time will only enhance learning. (In the context you present). Also, giving more time for the students to dive more once they get to their location.

A lovely prima faca argument... nothing to back it up... but lovely. Time utilization is a function of instructor class management... NOT a function of the material. Instructors can MAKE all the time they want... or are willing to. Likewise, instructors have an equal opportunity to take this in exactly the OPPOSITE direction...

 

[rakkis]

One more thought on e-learning... in most of the examples where folks have said, "I use it... (insert context here)" the context of their instruction is based on having some foundational knowledge before hand.

I think this is a very valid point that hasn't been brought up.

Wouldn't disagree... but this suggests to me that the problem lies with the certifying agencies administration of their program and not with the material. So is e-learning nothing more than a white flag waving on the banner pole of resignation? It sure makes it *look* like PADI is acknowledging shortcomings in its existing program and its inability to take any kind of corrective action... so it does what every middle manager does when the pressure goes on... 'REORGANIZE'... and then put out a lot of gloss explaining why the new stuff is just like the old stuff only BETTER!!! To me, it's like saying... "Hey... yer' already shafted... but now you get to get shafted in a whole new way!!!"

Again... HOW ARE WE MAKING BETTER DIVERS????

I haven't seen one piece of literature saying this is a better method of learning. PADI is calling eLearning a more convenient way of getting the knowledge development part done. Specifically, as it relates to a student that is unable to attend regularly scheduled classes.

If anything, they're going through some motions to defend it and say it is an equivalent method (whether or not you agree is not relevant for this thread of conversation. This is the premise.) They have not claimed this is superior.

A lovely prima faca argument... nothing to back it up... but lovely. Time utilization is a function of instructor class management... NOT a function of the material. Instructors can MAKE all the time they want... or are willing to. Likewise, instructors have an equal opportunity to take this in exactly the OPPOSITE direction...

I really don't understand why you needed that bit of arrogance to stain your otherwise well thought out post.

I agree with you. The method of delivery if used alone is didactic and imited in scope. Any method that does not include real time feed back from the student is generally not going to be the best one to use.

I limited the point I was making to the "diver factory" method of training sadly used by some places. Given the choice between reading/watching videos ahead of time OR going in blank-slate (with a book you bought 5 minutes ago) to a "lecture" that only addresses the specific points in the questions, I'd very gladly take eLearning. Being forced to go through the whole thing is better preparation than being spoon fed specific answers after handing someone a credit card.

Given this context, I will again say that eLearning would be better for a student than the current alternative at your tropical "diver factory".

 

[rakkis]

[double post]

 

[J.R.]

I really don't understand why you needed that bit of arrogance to stain your otherwise well thought out post.

Please accept my appologies... re-reading my own post I can easily see how it comes off that way... very poorly written on my part.

E-learning would, without a doubt, make the presentation of the material more *consistant*... I'd have to reserve judgement on *better* or even *more effective*.

Accepting the issues of "diver factories"... what changes? If I were running one I'd see e-learning as nothing more that another mechanism to facilite pushing yet more students through the mill having been handed a short-cut tool. If I'm 'gun-decking' the accademics in a 'dive-factory' class... I can do the same thing with e-learning... in fact, it would *seem* that most of the gun-decking has already been done for me and has been facilitated by the certifying agency. I can now wash my hands of it all with a simple, "Well, they did the perscribed on-line course... what they may or may not get out of it isn't my responsibility."

If I'm running a good class structure... I now, theoretically, have to contend with some students doing books... some doing e-learning... and how do you validate that both sets of student's hit the pool with the same accademic preparation? Wouldn't trying to manage this dual thread accademic portion introduce more challenges to an instructor than simply going with "A" or "B"??? ... AND... if it's acknowledged that this dual accademic thread would be more challenging administratively, then isn't it logical to assume that the natural evolution of processes would lead to the option of "A" OR "B"... but not "A" AND "B"???

 

[Don Wray]

I would like to ask a simple question of both consumers and industry professionals.....What is it that REALLY concerns you about PADI eLearning?

My primary concern is that PADI has set this program up so that it can only be administered by PADI dive shops. I'm an independent instructor and teach for several shops in the area on a contract basis with an emphasis on small group or individual classes. Although I only teach PADI programs, not all of my dive shops are PADI affiliated.

The instructor I DM for is in the same situation...and has the same concerns

 

[in_cavediver]

I do not believe this is a valid point in the context you present. A "diver factory" is already spending as little time as possible in the classroom. I.e., They go through the knowledge reviews, give a half *** explanation of the right answer only if people missed the question, then moved on. They could be done in this fashion in about 30 mins per KR if you really want to.

Moving the classroom to the student's own time will only enhance learning. (In the context you present). Also, giving more time for the students to dive more once they get to their location.

We agree and I see the elearning option as a facilitation mechanism to make it easier for the diver factories.

Now, fundmentally, I don't care what medium most of the topics are presented in provided that at some point, there is some face time for the instructor to go over some of the very important items in the class. Things such as dive tables and dive planning for instance. The media used needs only to be effective in reaching the student. I don't buy the notion that this can be verifired in confined water or open water. This is stuff that belongs in the classroom before you ever get to OW.

Content - well that's enough for another thread but I assume the elearning content is equal to the book content so the minimun available to the student hasn't changed.

 

[jbichsel]

I had a fairly legthy discussion with Gordon at PADI Training Dept. last week regarding eLearning.

Two things that stuck in my mind during our discussion:

1. I had to continually remind Gordon that I am an independent instructor. Evidently a concept he had difficulty with as he kept saying "...your PADI facility...", "... your dive shop...", etc.

2. How many times Gordon kept refering to the increased number of potential divers that eLearning would create.

I do not have issues with eLearning in itself. My issues comes with the idea of "...make it easier..." rather than "...make it better...".

Let me address a few concerns I have:

1. PADI makes a big issue out of equipment ownership. Studies have shown that the more time dive students spend in a dive shop, around equipment, around DM's, AI's, instructors and other divers, the more equipment they buy.

Since dive instruction fees are not what is keeping the lights on and compressor running, it seems that PADI is going to negatively affect the LDS from this point.

2. Having witnessed and been party to numerous classroom discussions over the years, I know how questions and answers can evolve and spread out with the face-to-face interaction between instructor-students.

How well will the eLearning portal be able to react to student questions?

How well will the eLearning portal be able to confer/transfer the relationship it has built with the student to the LDS?

3. Instructors are quite instrumental in helping students determine what equipment to buy.

How well will the eLearning portal be able to discuss and answer questions students will have regarding different models/brands of equipment?

Will the eLearning portal be able to inform students of potentail warranty issues that will not be honored by certain equipment manufacturers if the student buys that brand online?

4. Children. Children present a different dynamic for teaching. Having twin daughters, I see this every day. Even between the two of them, they approach things in very different ways.

Will the eLearning portal be able to answer the variety of questions that children can come up with during academics?

5. Independent instructors. PADI seems to be closing the door on us more and more.

For those of us that don't conform to the push 'em in, pull 'em out fast phylosophy, we are completly cut out of the loop.

6. We all know there is a certain percentage of instructors/LDS out there that strictly believe in achieving only the minimum standards. There will be those that will accept the printed out quizzes, KR's and final exam, administer the 18 question review then start herding people through the pool and OW.

What about the RDP, eRDP and Wheel? How much real training will be done online to ensure that students truely grasp dive tables and the importance of understanding what they mean?

7. Personal touch. It seems that more and more, we are being isolated from personal interaction.

Where is PADI in support and trust of the value of instructors experience, knowledge and dedication they have put in to get to this level?

While I do understand the need to provide more options for learning, I wish there would be more interaction with instructors having more control.

Such as having to take the final exam AND a dive table exam under supervision of the instructor.

 

[Cheekymonkey]

I have no problem witht he learning side I don't see it any different then learning at home with a video and book, or with a cd or dvd. My problem with it is according to our PADI update, prospective students that are interested in learning to dive and pursue it as the PADI website will be assigned to a shop for their in person portion of teh class, pool and dives. I can pretty well gaurantee you, they will be assigned to the 5 star shops over the independent instructors, kinda shafts us.