The General Angst Over the PADI eLearning Program

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rakkis:
I do believe that the CD-ROM version requires quizes and final to be taken with the instructor, but I am uncertain as I've yet to have a student use the CD-ROM and my manual is in my car. Perhaps someone can help?

Yes, it does require quizes and exam to be taken in person under the guidance of an instructor. I purchased a CD version just to see what it was like. I mentioned this earlier in the thread that it was in html format. For those non computer savy thats the language of the internet. I haven't seen any of the "online" material but I suspect it's nothing more than the OW CDROM version manual. Which means everyone is getting thier panties in a wad over nothing and the "online" leasons will be ABSOLUTELY nothing new. If I'm correct the only thing that has changed is instead of getting content through the CD drive it will now come through a modem.
To simplify things to an extreme ....
It's just an "online" manual.
When someone actualy see's the online content we will know for sure.
 
My post apply to the whole tiered membership (stores/instructors/dms/divers) system adapted by all the larger agencies.

J.R.:
... If the issue is to promote diving... (as a pure motive)...
I understand why people that love the sport would love to promote it for the sheer joy it will bring others. I share that sentiment to a large extent. However, I disagree that promoting diving as an industry has ever been a "pure motive" outside of a few individuals.

Let me tell you about a martial art called Shorinji Kempo that I've had the oportunity to train in (http://www.shorinjikempo.or.jp/wsko/). Instructors are expressively forbidden from making a profit by teaching it. If any fees are collected, they are limited to renting facilities to train in or group activities. Absolutely no money can be earned by the instructor.

After two years of practicing, I have paid a grand total of $25 to get an ID made and sent to me from Japan. I have also purchased a good quality dogi from a third party merchant for about $100. That's it!

It would be awesome if SCUBA training was that cheap. I'm sure a number of instructors wouldn't mind teaching pro bono. But I'm going to go on a limb here and say that a HUGE number wouldn't. My time is worth something. And I deliver training to make you a good, solid diver. Why shouldn't I get a return on that?

With the same logic, why should any agency develop courses, print materials and sell them at cost? Why are SCUBA training and materials exempt from the rules of free market?


J.R.:
I would think that their educational model would be more inclusive and encouraging... I would think that they would be more supportive of independants who are willing to involve more people in diving...
Let me make one thing clear. Generally, I completely respect independent instructors, regardless of agency. Since they do not have to answer to group constraints, shop schedule logistics, and sales, most tend to dedicate more time and effort towards individual students. This translates as a higher cost for the student, but by and large a student realizes they are getting more attention. That's why they came to a private instructor in the first place! This is the primary advantage of independent vs. store... and it's a biggie! (see below for advantages in the other direction) A custom schedule is also generally a given.

I may go independent one day, but for at least a few years, the rest of my life prevents me from going through the hoops I need to to get started.


While it would be a nice benefit for independent instructors, what you described would be the same as the LA Times giving you a full page for the cost of a small classified ad. Great for you, but unfair to the person that paid full cost for it.

Ok.. great new advertising feature! But as an independent instructor, you can't use it. "Well that sucks. I should be able to" Why? Agency memberships are tiered (whether you agree with this is irrelevant for this discussion), it follows that benefits should be tiered as well. Ok.. you can get your online listing, but then the stores will get something else that you don't have. It will (and should) be this way as long as one member (store) pays a premium for their kind of membership.


J.R.:
... if PADI is willing to certify instructors without requiring them to show shop affiliation... why would then then not support them in 'furthering the need for more divers"??
PADI's support for all members include discounting PADI merchandise, workshops (hey... SOME are free), and generally (weakly in my opinion) advertising diving to the general public. As you know, shops get better benefits simply because they pay more as members.

J.R.:
From a CUSTOMER point of view... I'll answer your question... it further enhances the perception that there are TWO classes of PADI instructor... and why should I go to a 2nd class instrutor who isn't, obviously, getting the full support of the agency the was willing to certify them?
I empathize with this concern, but don't agree with it. I am of the opinion that a student gets things from the average store that he can't get from the average independent. (see above for how students benefit from independents)

Greater choice of gear, multiple opinions/sources of advice, air (yes yes.. some people have their own compressors), greater access to more divers/community, easier time rescheduling (other instructors can fill in), access to more and more varied trip opportunities - to name the bigger ones.

An independent, as a single person simply cannot match the stores in these strengths unless he has the time to fully dedicate himself to scuba, which is not the case very often.

This is not to say that the education provided by independents is sub par. Because of the extra time spent per student, independents do very well with this. But diving is not just about classes.

J.R.:
On its own, I see some issues with eLearning as relates... specifically, to OW training. I've mentioned them before. Others on this thread have likewise brought up very similar issues. However, that is ONE aspect of the problem... but, e-Learnnig is NOT the whole problem... its a symptom of the problem and it is a mechanism. Trying to keep the focus on the single thread issue of e-Learning *seems* to be a "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain" argument... the two issues are wed...

So... how, again... does this make for BETTER divers???

I don't see anybody arguing that eLearning will make a better diver. I see the "just as good" or "not as good" points being brought up. It sure is convenient for both instructors and students though. And that is the only thing that is almost agreed upon.

I don't like the fact that eLearning takes away greatly from student-student and student-instructor interaction. Yes, there is email, telephone, etc. But I will not get an eLearning student in the water without doing some meaningful remediation in the classroom - as encouraged by PADI staff that held eLearning workshops.

I hate how it uses a linear approach for each student as I believe that even though the minimum academic knowledge should match between students, they each learn it differently. Revisiting "old" material or putting things into context with the rest of the course is essential. This is going to be the main thrust in my remedial sessions.

I suppose that would put me in the "not as good" camp. But after a remedial session prior to any in water training, my eLearning and traditional students will be prepared in the same way.
 
webjr:
When someone actualy see's the online content we will know for sure.

The content was previewed in the eLearning workshops that have been held the past couple of months. I attended one ~2 weeks ago.

The material is presented mainly with Adobe Flash presented in the same order as the paper student manual. I believe students will be able to go back and forth in the book once they go through it once. There is a voice over track for all the text. Many figures, video clips, and animation throughout. Some are *really* nice. I may use them for my classroom sessions :eyebrow:

Retail stores will be able to sign up with eLearning sometime next week. Individual instructors can then be added by the store so that they can have access to the material and functionality of eLearning. Mods 1, 2, and 3 will be live and complete. Mods 4, 5 will come in the next few weeks.

eLearning for students opens mid May! :coffee:
 
webjr:
How does it compare to the CD manual? Is it just another manual in another format?

I haven't seen the contents of the CD-ROM manual. But since the online manual was developed after Flash, one would presume that the animations and figures are a lot nicer. :confused:
 
Another questiong after reading the following from: http://www.padimembers.com/si_pil/SIApr07/print_version.htm

An I quote "PADI Member Benefits
Online programs expand your business hours - now your virtual dive centre is open around the clock.
Having a web presence and offering online courses helps you attract new customers to visit your dive centre or resort.
PADI Dive Centres and Resorts receive a revenue share of the online course fee. It’s like selling a Deluxe PADI Crew-Pak without having to stock it in your inventory.
Online interaction between divers and your instructional staff during the courseprovides numerous opportunities to promote continuing education, equipment ownership and dive experiences - all before the diver even visits your physical store.
Student divers are encouraged to purchase hard copies of the course materials from you along with other necessary items, like an RDP table or eRDP and a log book.
After completing online knowledge development, student divers are directed to complete training with you.

So here's the question; given the boldened statement above and the term "..are encouraged..", are student ro longer required to have an RDP, eRDP or Wheel?

Or will dive planning be online also?

Sorry, but I'm rather pi**ed regarding PADI's apparent attitude to indepentdent instructors.

I wouldn't mind so much if PADI would implement a tiered structure; say offer indepentdent instructors a spot for $50/year.

I've designed websites, it wouldn't be that tought to have a seperate page/pages for independents and have a listing of them.

Another thing: PADI touts the "buddy" system, yet now they are providing a method of learning that can isolate people. A person can be a recluse throughout the academic portion.

As has been stated earlier, past history is a good indicator of future results.

I kind of equate this to building fence to keep cattle in.

You sart out building a six-feet tall, 7 strand barb-wire fence. That works great but costs a lot.

So eventually you go with a 5-foot, 5 strand fence. So far so good, cattle are still staying in.

Over time, you get to where you're building a 2-foot tall single strand fence. Then you scratch you head and wonder why the cattle got out.

Dumbing down is a perfect term for what is happening for the sake of more money for PADI.

And to respond to J.R. posting above:

Many of us are independent becasue we want to provide a better training experience than what our LDS may provide, due in part to the LDS's restictions on time. Some of us believe that by the time you become OW certified, you should be able to control buoyancy AND trim and should be able to plan a dive using RDP AND Wheel, that multilevel dive panning should be part of OW not an add on.

We believe that the recommended 31 hour OW course is too short. Just my academic and pool segements are 42+ hours.

Our belief is that by the end of OW you should not be sculling with your hands, should be able to use more than one kick style and be able to control your depth ny using your breathing.

I fear we are not long from seeing late night TV commercials that go something like this:

"You too can learn to dive in the privacy of your own home! Why get wet? (insert agancy) can certify you to dive in our "virtual ocean". Get your certification today, dive at Cozumel this weekend!"
 
webjr:
Yes, it does require quizes and exam to be taken in person under the guidance of an instructor. I purchased a CD version just to see what it was like. I mentioned this earlier in the thread that it was in html format. For those non computer savy thats the language of the internet. I haven't seen any of the "online" material but I suspect it's nothing more than the OW CDROM version manual. Which means everyone is getting thier panties in a wad over nothing and the "online" leasons will be ABSOLUTELY nothing new. If I'm correct the only thing that has changed is instead of getting content through the CD drive it will now come through a modem.
To simplify things to an extreme ....
It's just an "online" manual.
When someone actualy see's the online content we will know for sure.

I have seen the online content and this program is WAY more than the CD-ROM version. This is a professional online training program, developed by a professional online training organization, and is one of the most complete and sopisticated online training programs I have ever seen. In fact, I am using the program right now as we speak.

Phil Ellis
 
PhilEllis:
In fact, I am using the program right now as we speak.
Cool! Does PADI have a demo out for Instructors to access?
It'd be nice to see it in person. I've looked on padimembers.com and couldn't find anything usefull.
 
webjr:
BTW,

If any other PADI instructors are not happy with PADI's decision to keep independent instructors out of the elearning program, I encourage you to let them know -------
training@padi.com
I did. I also mentioned how rude I thought it was to be left out of online PICs program. They'll never change if they don't know we're pissed.
They'll just shine you on, keep taking your bucks and snickering till y'all wise up to the fact that you are not wanted there.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/teric/

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