can we use VR3 for recreational dives..?

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thank you guys for all the feed back...I love my "birick", never had a problem with it....the reason I want to change computers is to have one less hose across my chest which is the best way for me to be trimed
 
in_cavediver:
I agree with Perrone, the backup, be it 'paper' or 'puter' is your reference for how to bailout. Its not the only word and shouldn't be treated as such. Hopefully, your either a rec diver and within limits (or very close) of your backup or a tec diver and have a clue where you are and should be to get yourself out of the water safely.

That didn't really answer my question about how you deal with changing paradigms.

Say you are on a somewhat deep rec dive. Your primary computer's algorithm credits you for deep stops. This computer fails mid ascent and you bail to your backup, a buhlmann model which wants to push the gradient and thus dings you for your deep stops and jumps into obligation mode. Do you listen to it and hang shallow until your drain your tank? Or do you use your "clue" and continue the dive with a reasonable profile?

If you listen to the backup, why isn't it your primary? If you continue ascending in the manner suggested by the failed primary (which I hope is an algorithm you have faith in), what's the backup for?

If don't see any redundancy if you can't simply switch seamlessly from one to the other.




Note: my question involves algorithms, and thus computers set to gauge mode aren't considered "backup computers" in my questioning.
 
Blackwood:
That didn't really answer my question about how you deal with changing paradigms.

Say you are on a somewhat deep rec dive. Your primary computer's algorithm credits you for deep stops. This computer fails mid ascent and you bail to your backup, a buhlmann model which wants to push the gradient and thus dings you for your deep stops and jumps into obligation mode. Do you listen to it and hang shallow until your drain your tank? Or do you use your "clue" and continue the dive with a reasonable profile?

If you listen to the backup, why isn't it your primary? If you continue ascending in the manner suggested by the failed primary (which I hope is an algorithm you have faith in), what's the backup for?

If don't see any redundancy if you can't simply switch seamlessly from one to the other.




Note: my question involves algorithms, and thus computers set to gauge mode aren't considered "backup computers" in my questioning.

Ignoring the valid option of using tables as a backup to a computer, you should be comfortable, and have enough gas, to dive either computer's profile.

In the scenario you presented earlier, the primary computer uses an algorithm that results in deep stops and the second computer (backup) penalizes you for the deep stops. The purpose of using a computer and not tables as a backup is so that you can "fly it" if your primary tool fails. If you're not going to follow what it tells you then why are you using it? In the example that you mentioned, you'd better have enough gas to complete the dive the way your backup tells you to, or you should get a different computer with a more closely aligned algorithm.

If you (stupidly) find yourself in a deco situation with a failed primary computer and not enough gas to follow your backup computer out of the water, then a) you've really messed up and b) there are all kinds of theories about what is the best way to handle that situation - way off the topic of this thread but maybe worth another thread.

If you're diving with a computer as a backup to a computer and you're concerned about the situation you describe, I would suggest finding two computers that follow similar algorithms. It's also not a bad idea to look at some worst case tables and do a little gas planning.

It's important to remember, too, that your backup is your safety net. It doesn't have to be pretty or fun, it just has to keep you safe if your primary fails. It might suck really bad to follow the deco schedule on your backup computer if it follows a different algorithm, but you should get out of the water healthy. Maybe not happy...

Not sure if that answered your questions?

Brian
 
Icarus, in several other threads you talk about going the DIR/GUE route. Why are you even considering the VR3, then? It would be a complete waste of money.
 
Icarusflies:
thank you guys for all the feed back...I love my "birick", never had a problem with it....the reason I want to change computers is to have one less hose across my chest which is the best way for me to be trimed

Fair enough, although you're not going to cut down the number of hoses because you're going to have to introduce a more traditional pressure gauge, no?

Valid reason in any case. It's probably been mentioned elsewhere on this thread, but your tech training classes will almost definitely be done on tables and a bottom timer, especially if you go the DIR route (from what I understand). Before you buy another computer that you find later doesn't meet your exact needs, I'd give that a shot.

You could probably shorten the HP hose to your computer and clip it off on your waist if you wanted. There's got to be some way to keep that thing nice and tight. A friend of mine has one of those and brings it across his body and clips it off on his right side. Nothing dangling, easy to unclip and view, streamlined...

Good luck however you go.

Brian
 
Blackwood:
That didn't really answer my question about how you deal with changing paradigms.

Say you are on a somewhat deep rec dive. Your primary computer's algorithm credits you for deep stops. This computer fails mid ascent and you bail to your backup, a buhlmann model which wants to push the gradient and thus dings you for your deep stops and jumps into obligation mode. Do you listen to it and hang shallow until your drain your tank? Or do you use your "clue" and continue the dive with a reasonable profile?

If you listen to the backup, why isn't it your primary? If you continue ascending in the manner suggested by the failed primary (which I hope is an algorithm you have faith in), what's the backup for?

If don't see any redundancy if you can't simply switch seamlessly from one to the other.




Note: my question involves algorithms, and thus computers set to gauge mode aren't considered "backup computers" in my questioning.

Well, my primary is either cut tables or a VR3 depending on the profile. We'll go the VR3 for a simply rec dive. My backup is Bulmann tables and a BT.

Now, lets say the profile was this: 120' for 25 min, I was doing a deep stop at 70' and the VR3 dies. Good enough scenario? (I know its slightly outside of rec but it would cause deep stops on the VR3)

My procedure. Whip out my handy dandy buelhmann tables and see where I am at. Assuming I am on schedule, I'd do my next 'deep' stop around 40' and finish the schedule called for by the tables for a 25 minute run time. I'd also extend the 20ft stop by 3-5 minutes, especially if I had O2. As for how I knew the schedule, I watch that during the dive and even if it failed, I can estimate where deep stops should go and for how long.

As for gas, I plan all my dive with 1/3rds or rockbottom. I have the gas to do the dive. I also have a fully equipped team mate to assist.

Now, did I follow the tables to the T - Nope. I don't always follow the VR3 to the T either (some deep stops it wanted have been at an inconvienent depth). Its a tool and I have to agree to the profile and information it gives. No blind faith.

If I backed it up with a computer, I'd follow it as well but still do the deep stops. The computer may not require them but my dive plan does. Again its a tool to give me information. I decide whether the profile it spits out is good or garbage.

In reality, my backup is there to give redundant time, max depth and current depth information. Assuming a pure rec dive, you ascend and surface at any time right. What would a different computer matter. Do a 3 minute safety stop and go from there.

If you are pushing it a bit, like the profile I described above, you should have the training to do it and plan bailouts. Even at the Adv. Nitrox level, if you dive within your training level, you should have 15 minutes or less deco right - do your 15 minutes at 15-20' and surface. Between you and your buddy, if you planned your dive, you have the gas to do it. Beyond Adv Nitrox, you ought to know enough to get yourself home from your dive plan.
 
in_cavediver:
Beyond Adv Nitrox, you ought to know enough to get yourself home from your dive plan.

Beyond BOW you should know how to get home from your dive plan (too much to ask in the real world, I know).

My initial post was with respect to your average diver who has two conflicting computers and calls it redundancy, something I still don't understand.
 
Blackwood:
Say you are on a somewhat deep rec dive. Your primary computer's algorithm credits you for deep stops. This computer fails mid ascent and you bail to your backup, a buhlmann model which wants to push the gradient and thus dings you for your deep stops and jumps into obligation mode.
Many people have posted this "dings you for your deep stops" canard, but I've never been able to find a profile that does this.

When I do reasonable length deep stops, my dissolved gas model computer often clears the mandatory deco.

When I do excessively deep and long deep stops, both the pure dissolved gas models and the dual phase models appropriately add to the deco time. There are some slight differences, but nothing dramatic. Definitely not as dramatic as the effect of a rapid descent in some models.

-------------

Even though a neo-Haldanian computer shows that the ceiling depth is 10', you don't have to go zooming up there immediately.

You set the profile, the dive computer makes its best guess as to N2 loading.

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As to the problem of computer failure during the ascent --- you have a gas plan that allows for a certain amount of maximum deco. You should remember what the total time to ascend was when you left the bottom. A reasonably alert diver should be able to complete his ascent and stops without difficulty, even if the computer dies during the ascent.
 
Blackwood:
Beyond BOW you should know how to get home from your dive plan (too much to ask in the real world, I know).

My initial post was with respect to your average diver who has two conflicting computers and calls it redundancy, something I still don't understand.

In a true rec sense, it would allow a diver to continue diving without sitting out, provided they satisfied both computers for each dive. Personally, I don't see that as much of a limitation. A rec diver diving best practices should never encounter a problem where one computer says deco and one doesn't. They call that situation riding the limits which is not a good idea.
 
Charlie99:
Many people have posted this "dings you for your deep stops" canard, but I've never been able to find a profile that does this.

MY vyper and a vytec (non DS) hits you badly for deep stops. If you make a deep stop you can see them ADD time to your shallow stop.

Most decompression dives ive done in the 35-45m range with those computers hit hard for deep stops.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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