Incident Report (long)

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I just got off the phone with the LDS, Mares wants to look at my reg. They said it should not have freeflowed under those conditions. The good news is it's still new (maybe still under a year old), and has already had it's annual service so they can't say it was improperly maintained.

Thanks to all for sound advice and civil discussion :wink:

Rachel
 
I hesitate to post on this thread because I usually make biscuit7 mad. I'll try not to. I have spent a lot of time at Gilboa and have posted many pages on the wacky things I have seen there. I have tought many AOW classes there not to mention OW, specialties and Advanced Nitrox.

I won't say too much about what went wrong on the dive. Others have already pointed out the importance of being able to manage an inconvenience like a free flowing reg and still control buoyancy and stay together.

I have seen many, many rapid ascents due to free flows at Gilboa and some have resulted in injury so I get a little emotional on the subject sometimes.

As an instructor I don't take students on a "deep dive" unless I think they have the basics squared away. I personally don't do AOW dives on the deep side of Gilboa. There are far better places in the quarry to do them. When I say better I mean locations that let me take divers to the depth that I wish and yet have better control than on the deep side. In fact I have seen so many scarry things with AOW classes on the deep side of Gilboa that I won't dive there when those classes are going on. Not because I'm a snob or anything but because I can't stand to watch when there isn't anything I can do about it anyway.

If I was diving a single tank with a single output valve I would not EVER let any one turn my air off unless I was confident in my ability to turn it back on in the event I needed it. I know in this case the air wasn't shut off but it sounds like it was thought about.

I'm glad you weren't injured biscuit7. The scarry part is it's just luck. IMO, there was nothing in the design of the dive that insured a favorable out come in such an event. If I had my way there would be no such training dives conducted there.

I hope I didn't make you mad this time but I'm getting mad so I'll stop now.
 
I would like to hear what you would do in case of a freeflow. I'm trying to learn from this so I can be better prepared with more options in my head if and when something goes wrong with me or my buddy.

R
 
biscuit7 once bubbled...
I would like to hear what you would do in case of a freeflow. I'm trying to learn from this so I can be better prepared with more options in my head if and when something goes wrong with me or my buddy.
R

As you have already noted, the freeflow wasn't really a problem since you had so many sources of air handy. What you should try to figure out is why you ended up with a rapid ascent rate.

Also consider that you and your buddy might very well have handled it better together than trying to get the attention of the instructor.

Even with a single tank, it's nice to be able to operate your own tank valve. A simple trick that helps a lot is that most people can reach the valve better if you put your elbow against your head. This works a lot better than trying to reach it while your elbow is out over your shoulder.

Sitting at a keyboard on dry land, it's really easy to say "Don't Panic", but controlling the fight-or-flight reflex may be the difference between a minor annoyance and a major accident. 10 seconds isn't going to make a big difference in N2 loading or amount of gas available. Taking a few seconds to think before acting (assuming you have an air supply in your mouth) helps a lot. Drilling yourself on this, mentally preparing yourself to think before acting, ups the chances that you will stop, assess, then act. This stop, think, then act is also important in cases of entanglement.

Thanks for sharing.

Charlie
 
how about keep it simple, at the first sign of trouble abort the dive. If the reg freeflows, signal buddy that you want to ascend, breath off the freeflowing reg and make a normal ascent, as per open water training. Shuting down a tank valve and turning it back on probably won't correct the problem. Bang the second stage all you want, if its a first stage free flow all you'll do is damage your second stage, there is no requirment to share air in this situation. Yes its hard to see through the cloud of bubbles try tilting your head to one side to let the bubbles past your mask so it doesn't get pushed up. Don't let anyone shut off your valve for any reason unless you can turn it back on yourself !!!
 
and I'm not saying that I handled my problem perfectly either, just different.

It was the second dive of the day and I had breathed the reg a couple of times before descent so that is probably how the free flow happened (due to ice up duh!). Cold surface/water temps (34F at depth). We dove to 99' and during our ascent at about 90' there began a small trickle... 85' full blow!! I had about 1100 psi when the trickle began and heres what I did...

I thought since we were ascending anyway, I just kept breathing the free flow while i continuously monitored my air. I tried a few things with the second stage but the free flow continued. My buddy was right beside me for the whole ascent in case I needed air. What was weird is as we hit 20' the free flow abruptly stopped - apparently they don't normally stop if iced up. I lost about 500psi on the ascent to 20' and had more than enough gas (600) to do the safety stop since the free flow stopped. Obviously if it hadn't stopped I'd be sharing my buddy's air for most of the safety stop. Never did shut the tank off untill out of the water.

I guess my point is this... since I wasn't "out of air" I didn't need my buddy's octo. I could potentially have been but we stuck close and all was well. The problem I see with shutting the free flow down when it could still be breathed is that now both of you are breathing one reg and in the unlikely event his reg failed too, now you are both OOA even though you may still have breathable gas in your shut off tank -- now you both have to scramble!

my 2 cents (canadian)
 
I do have a question about the nature of the ascent: Were you assisting in the ascent when you FIRST started going up? It sounds like you were unaware of any ascent at all until you were pretty shallow. The other part of the question is then was your buddy pulling you up?

My first reaction on how to make the situation better was to drop your freeflowing reg as soon as you had your buddy's octo. The reg would either float upwards or swing around behind you. In a share-air ascent you and buddy would be face to face to maintain contact, and the reg would be out to the side of the circle you and your buddy formed. Thus the bubbles would not be an issue. Also, your buddy should be able to hold your BC strap and you can hold the octo with one hand, and keep your freeflowing reg away with the other (if needed). You can then let go of the octo to dump air as needed (or just rely on buddy to provide bouyancy if you can't let go of the octo more than a secon at a time).

By holding your buddy's octo AND keeping your reg, you became an entanglement for them. Since you couldn't see past your bubbles you didn't know the effect you had on your buddy. That is, you could be impeding an ascent, dragging them down or up, or knocking off their mask. Thus, the primary goal would have been to get you other air so you could get that freeflowing reg out of your sightline.

Next, I am curios about bouyancy. If your answer to my question above is that your buddy was pulling you up (and you didn't know it) then that was a pretty dangerous move. Your buddy should know you need to dump air all the way up to maintain a controlled ascent.

If, however, you were assisting in your ascent then you should have remembered to dump air. Of course I realize the panic of the situation prevents clear thinking, but you should consider your panic caused the uncontrolled ascent for you AND your buddy. My other concern here is that maybe you and your buddy lost bouyancy control and both ascended without knowing it.

Also, I see no reason for your tank to have been shut off. Personally I would let the reg freeflow at arm's length until the tank was empty. During ascent you could always take a breath off of the reg (or your octo) and you'd have air for your BC at the surface. If the bubbles are out to the side, then they aren't causing a problem.
 
JWDiver once bubbled...
I do have a question about the nature of the ascent: Were you assisting in the ascent when you FIRST started going up? It sounds like you were unaware of any ascent at all until you were pretty shallow. The other part of the question is then was your buddy pulling you up?

I was unaware of the ascent. My buddy started the ascent up a reference line, but lost the line when he couldn't dump air because I was holding on to his inflator hose. He says he signalled to me that we were going up, but I don't remember seeing it. I was neutral to slightly negative on the ladder. He says he remembers hitting the next crossbar (10 ft up) and tried to dump air between that crossbar and the next. The profile from the instructor's computer shows a normal ascent to that point.


My first reaction on how to make the situation better was to drop your freeflowing reg as soon as you had your buddy's octo. The reg would either float upwards or swing around behind you. In a share-air ascent you and buddy would be face to face to maintain contact, and the reg would be out to the side of the circle you and your buddy formed. Thus the bubbles would not be an issue. Also, your buddy should be able to hold your BC strap and you can hold the octo with one hand, and keep your freeflowing reg away with the other (if needed). You can then let go of the octo to dump air as needed (or just rely on buddy to provide bouyancy if you can't let go of the octo more than a secon at a time).

By holding your buddy's octo AND keeping your reg, you became an entanglement for them. Since you couldn't see past your bubbles you didn't know the effect you had on your buddy. That is, you could be impeding an ascent, dragging them down or up, or knocking off their mask. Thus, the primary goal would have been to get you other air so you could get that freeflowing reg out of your sightline.

I wasn't holding on to my primary reg, I had dropped it. I think that my octo was also freeflowing and because it was in a holder on my right chest those bubbles became the major interference, not the primary. The major problem with my lack of hands was that I had 2 people trying to assist me and I didn't know who was holding me where so I was trying to make sure that I had one hand on the person who's octo was in my mouth.

Next, I am curios about bouyancy. If your answer to my question above is that your buddy was pulling you up (and you didn't know it) then that was a pretty dangerous move. Your buddy should know you need to dump air all the way up to maintain a controlled ascent.

If, however, you were assisting in your ascent then you should have remembered to dump air. Of course I realize the panic of the situation prevents clear thinking, but you should consider your panic caused the uncontrolled ascent for you AND your buddy. My other concern here is that maybe you and your buddy lost bouyancy control and both ascended without knowing it.

Also, I see no reason for your tank to have been shut off. Personally I would let the reg freeflow at arm's length until the tank was empty. During ascent you could always take a breath off of the reg (or your octo) and you'd have air for your BC at the surface. If the bubbles are out to the side, then they aren't causing a problem.

In reality, I wasn't panicking in a true sense. I knew that a bad thing had happened but wasn't doing anything to impede my rescue. I was trying to be calm and relaxed while the situation got straightened out, however because my buddy had started the ascent, I became buoyant due to expanding air. The instructor that was assisting was aware that he and I were going up, but he didn't know that I was on my buddy's air and holding on to him, so from his perspective everything seemed fine. He had dumped some of his own air, and was trying to get me to take his octo. By the time I grabbed that air he said he looked back and saw the reference line zipping by. My buddy was actually slowing down the ascent for all three of us because I had become buoyant. When I let go of the only anchor (who became not so much an anchor at approximately the same time) is when the ascent started to become uncontrolled. Had I known that we had started up AND that my buddy had a hold of me, I would have assisted in the ascent by dumping air to the best of my ability. My greatest fear was losing my air source and being unable to recover one in the confusion.

I realize I said the word "rescue" up there somewhere and that is what this became in a sense. I was trying to figure out how to help my own situation but because there was so much going on, I couldn't figure out who was trying to assist me and how they were doing that. I really didn't know that we had ascended until I saw the light coming and at that point I did try and reach for my dump but we were on the surface before I actually got to do anything about it.

If I had it to do over again, with a reference line not a 1/2 an arm's length away, I would just ascend on the freeflow, at least that way I would know what was happening and the freeflow might have quit after a little bit. Without a line.... I don't know.... still....

Rachel
 
Glad you are OK Rachel. I had a somewhat similar rapid ascent from about 60' last summer chasing my buddy who was nearly unconscious.

If your buddy is a regular buddy, I'd suggest you practice that ascent the next chance you get. Practice it as you should have done it, just as you said above. Hopefully that will be positive reinforcement for future reference.

Work out hand placement and how you work together so next time you won't even have to think about it.
 
Quick question:
>>but he didn't know that I was on my buddy's air and holding on to him, so from his perspective everything seemed fine. He had dumped some of his own air, and was trying to get me to take his octo.<<

I know there were lots of bubbles but it's a bit odd that the instructor didn't see that you were already on your buddy's air. If he'd seen that he could have then concentrated on your ascent rate not on trying to give you air.

About the tank shut off:
I had a tank o-ring burst during a night dive once and there was lots of bubbles from the valve. I swam to my buddy. He immediately gave me his octopus but I didn't get it in my mouth right away . . .it was nite, I couldn't see the octo as my torch was swinging off my wrist and it felt like it was upside down. Anyway, he reached around shut down my tank before I had the octopus in my gob so I was airless for a bit. It was ok at the time as I was aware of what was going on and felt comfortable taking a little time to make sure his reg was in my mouth the right way around. But he shouldn't have shut down tank before I had air - was just way too enthusiastic about it. We were calm, signalled ok and did a normal ascent.

Two things - I think it's risky shutting down tanks for reasons already mentioned and if you get separated, one person is without air. Also, if there's some difficulty on the surface the person with no air will not be able to inflate their BC and may panic. They will only think of orally inflating it if they are calm and not panicking. Tank shut down could make a surface situation more difficult to deal with - even with free flow am I right in thinking that there would still be enough air to inflate BC on the surface?
 
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