WE NEED TO ACT NOW! Florida's goliath grouper still need our help.

[Biminibill]

Richesb,

Maybe there will be a limited harvest at some point...that would be great, but it's not going to be a knee jerk opening and it's not going to be based on "they're everywhere". If the science opens it up, fine. As for "they've have been eaten" I agree with you. To say that it was the jewfish that ate them is a completely unsupportable statement. Lobster were declining years before the jewfish recovery showed any significance. Add to that the development of the deep water harvest off the southwest Florida coast and the killer virus that attacks juveniles and the increase in reccie diver pressure and yes, it's very likely that the crawfish have been eaten....after they've made a trip up the road in freezer trucks.

Biminibill

 

[Dive Right In Scuba]

Sorry, IM not big into this debate or have the knowledge about this that alot of people here do, but what eats GG? Big Sharks right? The lack of the bigger sharks, due to culling and numerous other reasons, is what is leading to more GG because they are not being eatin by the bigger preditor animals...Is this correct? Its Us, Humans causing all these problems.....

Not enough Bugs because the GG are eating them?? Well I promise that We are taking more Bugs out of the ocean to eat them than the fish!!! What are we doing about that? Nothing...lets just kill off the competition right?? Come on...

We need to learn to adjust OUR habits and not hold mother nature hostage against what took her billions of years to build!! Wake up people....Humans have become a VIrus that is destroying this earth and things around it and not many are doing anything about it...

Im sure this will catch me some flack, but this is My Personal Opinion

 

[archman]

After reading the research proposal for the 800 fish, I see no problem (with what is stated). Fishermen participating have to register for scientific collecting permits. Only 400 fish can be taken per year, for only two years. Each jewfish caught will have a unique identifier tag placed on it.

There appears to be confusion as to whether or no the National Marine Fisheries Service supports this plan or not. The proposal plan states quite clearly that it has such support.

To address this issue, the Florida Fish and Wildlife conservation Commission, Fish and Wildlife Research Institute (FWC-FWRI) and the National Marine Fisheries Service, Southeast Fishery Science Center (NMFS-SEFSC) are proposing to develop a joint, collaborative research program directed at goliath grouper in the South Atlantic and eastern Gulf of Mexico. This research program would include the harvest of a limited number of goliath grouper for scientific purposes

Yet Walt's statements say the opposite.

Both the Florida State University scientific community and NOAA's National Marine Fisheries Service have voiced opposition to this CGGRP plan.

As NMFS can only have one "official opinion", I'm wondering what that is, as it would carry tremendous weight. If they do not endorse this plan, the only reasons I can see for it would be that:
1. 800 jewfish is considered too many
2. final disposition of caught animals is not clearly worked out

It would sure help if the names of the scientists and resource managers directly involved (or consulted) would be posted. Personally, I can't make heads or tails out of who's opinions are on the record, and who's opinions are scientifically relevant.

**
As another note, it looks to me like the fishermen who catch these jewfish won't even get to keep them. The fish will need to go to some lab where their *innards* can be frozen. Not being able to keep your catch will turn away quite a few permit applicants, straight off.

 

[Vtdiver2]

I may be naive, but I have a couple of questions regarding this subject.
Is it true that the GG is overabundant in some areas, but in others are almost non-existant? If that is the case, rather than hunting them down, wouldn't it be prudent to relocate some from areas of overabundance to those where they aren't? I watched a show recently on Discovery channel where tuna are caught in large circular nets, then towed for hundreds of miles to a location where the larger fish are harvested, and the others released. Couldn't a similar system be devised?

Other question. I understand harvesting a few fish to check stomach contents etc., but 800? Seems like a rather large number in the name of science. How was this number devised?. Again, I may be naive, but to me, it sounds more like culling the herd. I am a sportsman, and we have similar issues with the moose here in VT, and the solution that is being presented there sounds like what VT is doing, culling the herd from populated areas, and areas where the high numbers are destoying the habitat, but restricting hunting from areas where the moose numbers are compatible with the habitat. How does the plan of catching 800 GG from areas of overabundance address the problem of areas where the GG is still threatened? Seems to me, a plan for the species needs to be devised that addresses the needs of the fish in all areas.

I had the privilege of diving Veterans Reef off Tarpon Springs with MissD and a couple of other divers this past April, and enjoyed seeing a GG, but was surprised not to see other grouper. That held true for all the diving I did on the GOM that trip. Diving the Keys the previous winter, we saw many species of Grouper, but not one GG. It does seem the Grouper may be affecting the ecosystem, and a solution may be needed, but I just wonder how many options are being looked at.
C-Dawg

 

[Aelvin]

Did my part, Emailed them both!!!

 

[archman]

Is it true that the GG is overabundant in some areas, but in others are almost non-existant? If that is the case, rather than hunting them down, wouldn't it be prudent to relocate some from areas of overabundance to those where they aren't?

The problem is, most areas where jewfish are rare are places where they are still fished. Relocating (which won't work for this species anyway, doesn't aggregate much) would just help out the local fishermen.

Other question. I understand harvesting a few fish to check stomach contents etc., but 800? Seems like a rather large number in the name of science. How was this number devised?. Again, I may be naive, but to me, it sounds more like culling the herd.

Modern fisheries science (like most ecological science) is now highly quantitative. In order to create (useful) statistical models, a large number of "samples" is usually required. Lacking a large sample series, predictions tend to have higher error rates and may not even be accurate. For fisheries data, unusually high predictive capability is often necessary, as such models directly influence state and federal policymaking. The last thing a fisheries manager wants is for some politico to discount their predictive model because the politico's legal counsel or constituent base might find a statistical chink in it. "Not enough data" is an extremely common tactic used by politicos to discount or overrule scientific findings. Fisheries managers might be slow, but they're not stupid.

How does the plan of catching 800 GG from areas of overabundance address the problem of areas where the GG is still threatened?

There appear to still be real questions regarding jewfish fecundity, diet, and life history. Getting a better handle on these issues can be very valuable in determining future management plans for the species. Unlike most terrestrially hunted animals, marine ones are often much poorly known. We normally have to depend on indirect monitoring methods (eg. fishing) rather than direct ones (tracking, in situ observation). Indirect methods suck.

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The problem is, most areas where jewfish are rare are places where they are still fished. Relocating (which won't work for this species anyway, doesn't aggregate much) would just help out the local fishermen.


Modern fisheries science (like most ecological science) is now highly quantitative. In order to create (useful) statistical models, a large number of "samples" is usually required. Lacking a large sample series, predictions tend to have higher error rates and may not even be accurate. For fisheries data, unusually high predictive capability is often necessary, as such models directly influence state and federal policymaking. The last thing a fisheries manager wants is for some politico to discount their predictive model because the politico's legal counsel or constituent base might find a statistical chink in it. "Not enough data" is an extremely common tactic used by politicos to discount or overrule scientific findings. Fisheries managers might be slow, but they're not stupid.


There appear to still be real questions regarding jewfish fecundity, diet, and life history. Getting a better handle on these issues can be very valuable in determining future management plans for the species. Unlike most terrestrially hunted animals, marine ones are often much poorly known. We normally have to depend on indirect monitoring methods (eg. fishing) rather than direct ones (tracking, in situ observation). Indirect methods suck.

The jewfish do aggregate. The jewfish abundance in Florida is cerainly not uniform, however they are not "fished" anywhere leagally in Florida. The "incidental" take by spearfisherman and hook and line fishing is almost surely directly correlated with abundance.

 

[archman]

I said they don't aggregate... much. Not as much as their related Nassau pals, and certainly nowhere near as that of most commercially fished scombrids.

They only cluster in large numbers for spawning events in late summer, and that's assuming a healthy base population.

Ah, I've tracked down the reference of all references (since 1999) on jewfish and nassau grouper.
http://www.flmnh.ufl.edu/fish/Gallery/Descript/GoliathGrouper/tr146.pdf

If one sifts through it all, there are several remarks for the jewfish regarding lacking or incomplete information. Among other things, details about its natural mortality, gonadal tissues, sex ratios, hatch times and larval stages, and generation times.

 

[Jax Diver]

They definitely aggregate to spawn in late summer, but also tend to aggregate (in smaller numbers) around wrecks and certain parts of the reef at all other times of the year. This behavior is what makes people think there are so many of them. It is also what makes them so susceptible to overfishing.
It would be great if we could just catch some of our smaller ones and "restock" areas that list Goliath Grouper as critically endangered. They are easy to ship and a hardy fish. Friends of mine have shipped them to public aquariums in the past, when it was legal to harvest them. Unfortunately, if they are not protected in other countries or enforcement is lax, then I doubt it would do much good.

 

[archman]

Unfortunately, "restocking" a local fishery requires considerably more effort than that required to *stock* a public aquarium. Or even all the public aquariums in the world, compounded together.

We're talking hundreds (if not thousands) of adult animals. It's not like those foo-foo re-introduction efforts you see with many terrestrial animals, where a couple dozen (expensively maintained) animals are released. Those programs are designed for minimum viability of the species to even exist naturally.

There are much more efficient methods to improve jewfish stocks. Simply stop fishing for them, and let natural recruitment do its thing. It might also be possible to collect spawn for growout in aquaculture, and release juveniles into the wild later.