Are there any actual DIR divers here?

[edparris]

Hi Ed,

I have to completely dissagree with you there. Neither NAUI nor GUE advises or promotes different profiles with different gasses between team members. When we are on a team dive (NAUI or GUE) we are all on the same gas / deco schedule.

What's the point of a team dive if we don't all follow the same plan? Besides, NAUI NTEC and GUE Tech-1 are practically identical in procedure and configuration. Therefore I miss the logic in your statement.

Also, is there not a team meeting prior to every dive, to discuss team order, planned depth, time, deco schedule etc?? Or do you just dive in because someone else is GUE trained?

I'm confused.....

Sorry bad wording on my part. I did not mean to imply that members of a team were diving different decompression schedules or gasses. What I was pointing out is that the tools and procedures used to develop that plan vary in some of the details which adds to the pre-dive complexity. To continue with my earlier example I'm not particularly familiar with the RGBM decompression model so depending on the dive I might need a rather lengthy explanation of the assumptions that drive your proposed profile and gas plan. If I can make your plan work for me then it becomes our plan and we are one step closer to a successful dive. If I can't then the negotiations begin. This and all the other details are in no way insurmountable differences but it takes time to uncover them and obviously that is something you want to do above water.

 

[PfcAJ]

I have to disagree about the whole NAUI tech thing vs GUE.

Sure, the equipment is practically the same, but the procedure is different. Take a glance at NAUI's website, Helitrox, Heliair, Tech Nitrox, Deco Procedures...all separate classes.

NAUI's standard gas is 26/17 for helitrox, tech nitrox is up to 80%....need I say more? Are people teaching different things? Absolutely. Are the standards comparable with GUE? No, they are quite different (at least as published on the website).

This isn't a bash to NAUI by any stretch (I'm NAUI caved trained, which is WAY different than GUE's cave curriculum), its just different than GUE, and I feel that needs to be known.

Best,
AJ

I do not know NAUI's position on decompression profiles, however I imagine it will be a bit different than GUE's

 

[vbcoachchris]

I have to disagree about the whole NAUI tech thing vs GUE.

Sure, the equipment is practically the same, but the procedure is different. Take a glance at NAUI's website, Helitrox, Heliair, Tech Nitrox, Deco Procedures...all separate classes.

You are correct they are all different class, but NAUI allows for the combination of Helitrox, Deco Techniques, and Tech Nitrox. That class is commonly known as NAUI tech 1. NAUI NTEC and GUE equipment configuration is identical.

NAUI's standard gas is 26/17 for helitrox, tech nitrox is up to 80%....need I say more? Are people teaching different things? Absolutely. Are the standards comparable with GUE? No, they are quite different (at least as published on the website).

NAUI tech Nitrox is up to 100% Oxygen not 80%. This is directly taken from NAUI’s standards and procedures. While NAUI Helitrox tables work in the range of 26-30% and 13-17% He, Helitrox is defined as any Trimix gas that has at least 21% Oxygen. You can use more than 17% helium, you just can’t use the published tables.

This isn't a bash to NAUI by any stretch (I'm NAUI caved trained, which is WAY different than GUE's cave curriculum), its just different than GUE, and I feel that needs to be known.


I do not know NAUI's position on decompression profiles, however I imagine it will be a bit different than GUE's

While NAUI promotes its RGBM decompression software, VPM may be used for class. You can adjust the profiles as you see fit. All GUE profiles are checked with Deco planner in tech 1 and then adjusted.

Sounds similar to me.

NAUI recommends a Maximum PO2 of 1.4, but does not require you use best mix. Standard mixes may be used for class.

Again sounds similar to me.

I dive with several GUE trained divers. You will find little difference between the NAUI tech I course I teach and GUE tec I and you will find little if any difference between my trimix 1and 2 course and GUE tech 2 and I do not teach anything that is outside of NAUI standards or protocols. For example gas switching protocols and dive planning are identical.

Good training is good training. In any agency the instruction makes all the difference.

 

[PfcAJ]

Can you send me a link to the current standards. What I referenced was taken from NAUI's website. I realize that some instructors are combining the above mentioned courses into one program, however, those individual clases are still taught. Its still NAUI's tech program, but when presented in that manner it is quite different.

In any case, I think that the variance between GUE's cave and NAUI's cave program is very distinct. I'm suprised that it hasn't been discussed in the context of this thread.

Once again, I'm not saying that any one program is better, its all about the instructor. I just feel that there are some differences that need to be addressed when deciding on a plan for future education.

 

[vbcoachchris]

Can you send me a link to the current standards. What I referenced was taken from NAUI's website.

NAUI does not publicly publish their standards and procedures. I imagine there are politics behind this decision, but I do not know for sure. I have no idea why the website still lists it the way it does. It is most likely an oversight, but I will contact NAUI and inform them of this inconsistency.

Here is the first paragraph from the Tech EANx section of the NAUI S& P.

“This course is to provide the EANx certified diver with the skills and knowledge needed to minimize the risks of utilizing optimum breathing gas EANx mixtures of 28% through 100% (oxygen) for dives to a maximum training depth of 130 fsw.”

I realize that some instructors are combining the above mentioned courses into one program, however, those individual clases are still taught. Its still NAUI's tech program, but when presented in that manner it is quite different.

Those individual classes are grandfathered in, but very few NAUI Tech instructors would teach them separately. Heliair is a great example. Heliair is like poor mans Trimix. Pop in some helium and top it with air. It was originally designed for areas where Trimix was not readily available. The class is still listed in the standards, but is rarely taught.

In any case, I think that the variance between GUE's cave and NAUI's cave program is very distinct. I'm suprised that it hasn't been discussed in the context of this thread.

I can not speak to NAUI cave vs GUE cave, but there are NAUI cave instructors that have GUE tech 2 certification on this board. Maybe they can shed some light for you.

Once again, I'm not saying that any one program is better, its all about the instructor. I just feel that there are some differences that need to be addressed when deciding on a plan for future education.

You should always interview your instructor when taking technical training of any kind. Ask anything you are concerned about and if you don't like what you hear you should go elsewhere.

 

[rainman_02]

In any case, I think that the variance between GUE's cave and NAUI's cave program is very distinct. I'm suprised that it hasn't been discussed in the context of this thread.

Haven't taken either, but chickdiver was a former WKPP diver and now teaches cave through NAUI...

...and she seems to think the program is pretty good.

 

[ArcticDiver]

Are there any actual DIR divers here? That is the original question; or is it?

From the discussion it seems that there is far from a consensus on just what DIR is. The discussion reminds me a lot of religious inter-faith discussions. There is a bit of basic faith seasoned by marketing; with a dash of gnosticism; with some organizational imperitive thrown in.

Although it was presented early on in the thread as a holistic diving approach the discussion seems to focus primarily on specific mechanical items. Is this gas mix better than that? Is this training equivalent to that training? Does this conform to that agency's dictums? Is a person with this or that C-card more, or less DIR, than another person with different cardsd? And, so forth. In short, the discussion rapidly belies the supposed holistic philososphy.

Maybe there is no such thing as a DIR diver for all seasons.

 

[MHK]

NAUI NTEC and GUE Tech-1 are practically identical in procedure and configuration.

Please allow me to take issue with the above statement. It is one thing for Tim O'Leary to agree with GUE's configuration and encourage it in NAUI-Tech training, but it is a gigantic leap of faith to suggest that the courses are "practically identical". You can't parcel out 2 components of a training paradigm (i.e.; configuration and procedure) and then suggest that as a result of some similarities that the courses are virtually the same. I find it ironic that for years and years all of the agencies were saying that GUE's standardization was too rigid and impractical to implement on a global basis, and now that GUE has succeeded we see some agencies trending towards the GUE approach and some are even suggesting that they've been doing it this way all along.

That said, of course AG and/or Heather, will teach a class consistent with GUE protocols given their vast experiences within GUE and/or the WKPP. I have no doubt both will teach an excellent class, but that does not transcend into the entire NAUI-tech instructor core providing the same level of instructor with the same breath of knowledge or experience. Certainly the uniqueness of AG, Heather, et. al. former experiences will allow for a greater magnitude of GUE applications, but Joe Schmo from any town, USA may very well lack the requisite mentorship and understanding of GUE's approach, and that certainly can't be mirrored by copying a Power Point presentation, particularly in light of the fact that most, if not all, of the other classes within the organization provide for a more relaxed attitude towards gear configuration and training methodology. You can't go from an organizational attitude of putting your students on their knees in a poodle jacket at all other class levels, and then suggest that a certain class conforms in a nearly identical manner with GUE's philosophy. It's either an institutional acceptance of the ideology, or it isn't.

The GUE instructor mentorship process is unparalleled by way of comparison, and simply can't be duplicated on an organizational basis by supplying a copy of a power point and requiring a standard gear configuration. It takes years to become a GUE instructor, it takes seeing the class taught over and over and it takes an underlying belief and commitment in our approach before anyone can truly teach a class consistent with our methodology, so in my opinion it's completely disingenuous to suggest that NAUI's offering is "nearly identical" to GUE's. It's simply at odds with the facts.

Regards,

 

[Gareth]

If the original Question is "Are there any actual DIR divers here"

then

I dunno if I'd describe myself as a DIR diver as it's more of a never ending journey than a destination, but I'm fundies and Tech1 trained, looking at Tech2 next year.

Guess I'm also more of a lurker than a poster here too...