Redesigning AOW

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I bet that is a challege! You just tell them to maintain a certain depth?

Yes, and they must navigate a square for a certain number of feet (they do kick cycles earlier in the class to determine distance, then apply that to this dive).

It can be done as a team, with a primary navigator, and the other diver's primary function of maintaining depth and backup navigator. They can do that only if they come up with it on their own though, I don't suggest it (although teamwork is stressed throughout the entire course). If they do decide to work as a team, it typically goes much smoother.

If they don't work as a team, things tend to fall apart really fast....separation, inconsistent depth, running off course, lack of situational awareness, etc.

I'm not sure if Bob does his exactly the same way. I just took his idea and tweaked it some. I'm sure he'll chime in.
 
You just follow them while they are swimming the square? Navigational errors are amplified over longer distances. What kinda distanced do you usually have them do?
 
You just follow them while they are swiming the square? Navigational errors are amplified over longer distances. What kinda distanced do you usually have them do?

Yes, we just follow them. They are completely on their own, unless safety becomes an issue.

Typically, we'll have them do about 30' a leg.
 
Yes, and they must navigate a square for a certain number of feet (they do kick cycles earlier in the class to determine distance, then apply that to this dive).

It can be done as a team, with a primary navigator, and the other diver's primary function of maintaining depth and backup navigator. They can do that only if they come up with it on their own though, I don't suggest it (although teamwork is stressed throughout the entire course). If they do decide to work as a team, it typically goes much smoother.

If they don't work as a team, things tend to fall apart really fast....separation, inconsistent depth, running off course, lack of situational awareness, etc.

I'm not sure if Bob does his exactly the same way. I just took his idea and tweaked it some. I'm sure he'll chime in.
I use timed courses ... a square, a triangle, and a reverse triangle. Each pattern has 3-minute legs. The divers must maintain a constant depth of 20 feet (I give them a +/- 2 foot window). One diver gets the compass, the other gets the depth gauge and bottom timer. The diver with the compass navigates (of course) ... the other diver monitors the time of the leg and the team's depth, and calls the turn for the next leg. When they complete the course they ascend and check where they are relative to where they should be. Ideally, they should be back at the buoy where they started.

I follow the team towing a dive flag ... to evaluate how they are doing, and to intervene if things start going south.

The reason I split the work between the two divers is because I want to emphasize (a) maintaining buoyancy while task-loaded, (b) diving to be seen by your buddy, and (c) maintaining good communication while diving. These are the real goals of the dive ... the navigation is simply one of the means used to achieve them.

This is a really difficult dive ... the students usually have to do it more than once. But it's also the one that the students seem to progress the farthest because of ... once you've done it successfully, normal diving just seems so much easier.

As with BDub, we do navigation on almost every dive, and the students learn not just compass skills, but how to use depth, time, heading, and visual cues to build a mental "picture" of where they are at all times relative to where they started.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Lets face facts. AOW is designed to make money and to provide Dive operations a way to limit their liability. I’m sure the insurance carriers mandate certain sites as AOW only.

There is absolutely nothing stopping any one of us from getting the additional training we need to make us better divers. The AOW C-Card just makes it easier to get to the good sites when diving on a charter.

We all know divers that have great skills, hundreds of dives but only holds an AOW card, just as we all have seen divers with a fistful of cards that have no business diving, much less leading or instructing.

Additional training is up to you, not PADI, NAUI, SSI or anyone else.

Why are some many folks willing, no, not willing, eager to relieve the agencies of responsibility for the standards written by the agencies?
 
Why are some many folks willing, no, not willing, eager to relieve the agencies of responsibility for the standards written by the agencies?

Because any instructor can work within the standards of their agency to teach a worthwhile class if they choose to.

FWIW - I got the idea for a lot of my AOW curriculum from a guy who's been a PADI instructor in these parts for many years. He's got killer classes, and cranks out very well-trained divers ... and he does it within the standards of his agency. He just puts a lot of effort into his classes, and has a style that motivates his students to do the same ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Put that in the entry level class where it belongs. Require night, deep, low viz, wreck and search and recovery, increase the required dives to 10 and throw in some real academics.

I believe that the AOW needs too be somewhat generic in that the wreck specialty doesn't do us here in Oregon muck good unless you want too travel. Buoyancy can always be improved, no matter what level you are. Also, as far as Night and Low viz, I believe that should be classified together Night/Low viz. Also, don't you think Nav should come before S&R. So maybe something like this might do, Deep, Nav, Buoyancy, and Night/Low viz, with two other electives, that way they would get a well rounded class and a glimpse of the main body of diving. Leave the others (wreck,photo,naturalist,and such) as specialty courses.

I found the course in and of itself was good, however the thing that does need to be changed is the name. As already mentioned, get rid of the word "advanced". It gives the wrong impression. For example, I was an advanced diver at 9 dives. A person with only 9 dives is not an advanced diver. I know I was not.

AMEN!!! And that was said from a relatively fresh diver.

I would like to see the course re-attached to the OW course as I think this is where it belongs. All of my OW course was sitting on the bottom at 20' doing skills. We did the skills but no diving. Put OW and AOW together and you do the skills, then you do some diving where you learn how to use those skills.

Again, BRAVO!!! The way you describe the course in this paragraph is the way we do our OW course. Not plugging or bashing, but SDI structures their certs. differently than others. Diving is supposed too be fun, not boring and stuck in one place at 20'.
Isn't it?

I'd say that redesigning OW needs to come first. Part of that would involve revoking certifications of instructors who can't actually dive, and don't have the experience you'd really need to be a good knowledgeable instructor. 100-dive instructor-wonders shouldn't exist.

Whoo who!!! Someone else with same outlook. It seems too me crazy, that someone with basically only four certs.( OW, AOW, Rescue, & DM ) can become an Instructor. At which time they can certify OW divers. SCARY HUH????

I really think you should come out of your basic open water class with buoyancy and trim essentially mastered. That isn't a tough requirement.

Maybe not MASTERED, but at least be able too show control.

Geographic considerations: Altitude and dry suit around here. Could be incorporated into OW, but usually aren’t.

With my OW cert. we were not certified as altitude divers, but were given the basics (theoretical depths, changed safety stop depths, highest altitude for planning, and so on )

Sorry for the lengthy post, but these were some of the key points I felt strongly about. The problem is,IMO, do any of us really think any of the agencies will listen too a bunch of wanna bees from Scuba Board?:rofl3: These are all great ideas, but I don't think we stand a chance of changing anything unless we start our own agency.

Joe
 
The course should not be split into a series of one dive sections, but be focused on developing or improving skills. Note that Bob's description does not include any reference to Deep, Boat, Drift, Peak Performance Buoyancy,...
How to plan a dive
How to be a good dive buddy
Diving at night, or in limited visibility
Techniques for efficient trim and propulsion
Managing stress (i.e. how to deal with task loading)
Proper ascent/descent techniques
Deploying an SMB

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If you're going to teach deep diving, decompression planning MUST be taught. Students who go to ft on larger steel tanks (especially on air) run the risk of ascending with 500psi in their tank, and 10 minutes of deco obligations. Taking students deep who don't understand planning their dive is a serious accident waiting to happen, IMO.
I believe it would be much better to teach proper dive planning for deep dives so that the diver stays within the NDL. IMO, if you teach them deco, then they are going to start planning dives to use deco. Some may be ready, others may not be ready.

Part of the Deep course i simulated deco and teaching how to avoid deco... So they should be able to do the stops if they ignore the first part of their training...
Teaching how to avoid deco is IMO a better approach.

Personally, for my class;

Horizontal descent, face to face, not touching the bottom when reaching the bottom

Proficient buoyancy control and trim throughout the dive, even when tasked (OOG, mask skills, navigating (some degree of navigation is done on every dive)

Horizontal ascent, face to face, holding all stops (typically 3 stops of at least 1 minute each) within a couple of feet. They must do this while sharing air as well
These skills can be done on all of the dives, not just part of something like Peak Performance Buoyancy.

Focus on skills improvement, not on getting the student to do the first dive of a specialty that they may or may not take. Oops, am I an heretic? Marketing, marketing, marketing.....:wink:
 
These skills can be done on all of the dives, not just part of something like Peak Performance Buoyancy.

Agreed. We actually spend about 90 minutes of the first night talking about the mechanics of balance, buoyancy, trim, and kicks. Our first dive is spent getting them weighted properly (amount and placement), balanced, in trim, and work on buoyancy and kicks as well. The second dive adds a free descent and ascent, along with skills while still maintaining the basics in dive 1. This is typically enough for the student to realize they need to go practice those before returning to do the subsequent dives of the class.

So, the first dive is basically a PPB dive, but every dive after that is as well, only with more tasks/skills/demands added to it.
 
As far as GUE student being ahead or behind I don't know what they are doing for their bouyancy training so it is hard to say why.

I don't know if it's necessarily HOW it's taught. It's the minimum standards, and the enforcement thereof.

Some non-GUE instructors (those posting in this thread and my instructor, for example) may not accept touching of the bottom, but many will. In fact, students regularly pass basic and advanced classes by kneeling on the bottom. This is not so with any GUE class.

Swimming through hoola hoops or between strings is pretty gimmicky, if you ask me. Sure, it may provide feedback. But in the real world, you don't have strings and hoola hoops. You sometimes have to hold depth blind.

i [teach] how to avoid deco...

What... don't breathe compressed gases?

:p
 
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