What's not acceptable for OW training?

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I don't agree with #2. If the BC you train with and dive with has integrated weights then no big deal. As part of OW training, I had to demonstrate the removal of my integrated weight pockets which obviously was a complete non event.
 
I agree with your other choices but it seems to me that #2 would preclude one from learning while using a stainless steel bp/w since quite a bit of weight is 'integrated' there.

Cheers.

-J.-

Weight integrated is refering to bc's with ditchable weight pockets in them. Should be pretty obvious to anyone who's been around diving or this site very long. Has nothing to do with a heavy backplate.
 
Not to say these gears are not pleasant to use. They are. That's exactly why they shouldn't be used in the initial demonstration of mastery of these skills.

If you are trained to drive only automatic cars, and went somewhere where only stickshifts were allowed. Would you be at disadvantage?

If the push button BC's fail or if you had to borrow a regular mask - can you use these gears? That's what the OW card should do - allow one to use most Bc's, most masks, or weight belts - without problems at the surface, or down under.


To use your analogy, if I was not familiar with a manual transmission and that (lets say rental company) is all they had, I would have to decide to not drive or find another rental company.

Same goes for diving, if my gear fails and I can't find a suitable replacement, I’ll just have to dive a different day.
 
I'm sure there are as many opinions on this issue as there are instructors (or, perhaps, divers).

I'm not terribly invested in the debate, but I do think that students should be allowed to certify using tools that make their lives easier. All of the aforementioned gear does just that. You're right- if something breaks and a diver needs to rent gear, they'll be at a disadvantage. That's true no matter what rig they're diving, though. Do you honestly expect someone to be familiar with any equipment besides their own more than a year out of OW Cert, even if they had to perform the exercises using a variety of equipment?

The equipment manufacturers spend lots of time and money, figuring out how to make the lives of divers easier. Granted, some of it's junk, but why not use the good stuff they produce, for certification and diving thereafter?

In the end, it's about making and owning your choices (balancing reliability, ease of use and cost), and then getting experience with your rig.
 
I second the OP. IMHO, the diving instruction should include real diving equipment, not resort certification toys.
 
Not to say these gears are not pleasant to use. They are. That's exactly why they shouldn't be used in the initial demonstration of mastery of these skills.

If you are trained to drive only automatic cars, and went somewhere where only stickshifts were allowed. Would you be at disadvantage?

If the push button BC's fail or if you had to borrow a regular mask - can you use these gears? That's what the OW card should do - allow one to use most Bc's, most masks, or weight belts - without problems at the surface, or down under.

Once you complete an ITC and are an instructor, you will have a completely different perspective on things.

The first thing you will learn is that the scuba store is in business to sell gear and make a profit in order to pay the lease and other costs. The owner and his/her family have to eat.

Therefore gear sales will be determined by the owner, and she/he will determine what sells easily and makes the most profit. From that point on, you as an instructor will be required to promote the owner's gear, no matter what it is, and no matter whether you like it or hate it. You will even be wearing it yourself, even if you hate it, so that the students will buy it when they see it on you.

The second thing that you will learn is that the training agencies make their own rules, without asking you. In the present case, their standards merely say "the student shall be equipped with a B/C" and they do not stipulate further. Same is true of mask and weight belt.

Thus the owner of the store and the agency will make these calls.

I agree that scuba stores should not sell masks with purge valves, but that is not to preclude an instructor or store owner (his/her boss) from allowing purge valve masks in the certification classes. They will want the student to be happy, and therefore they will be accomodating as much as possible, and a purge valve mask is no big deal.

Same is true of push-button (as you call them) B/Cs.

Integrated B/Cs are good for your health because they take a load of weight off your lower back and move it up to your shoulders. These B/Cs are quite popular, and are similar to backplates, which do the same to a certain extent. A good instructor will teach a new student to split his/her weight between the integrated B/C and the weight belt. Then you can have a nice light weight belt, of about 6 to 8 lbs, and do all the drills that way, which is superior to a 20 lb or 30 lb cumbersome belt.

Forget your idealogy-based notions. Think about the business of scuba instead.

Or if you truly want to boss people around, and be bossed around yourself, simply join the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marines. Each of these has scuba divers. And they are very bossy.
 
In my opinion, a student completing OW training should NOT have the following gears:

1. Purge valve mask.
2. Weight integrated BC (at least until you've completed the donning/removal exercise; at least not using that feature until you've completed the drills).
3. Up/down push button BC.
4. One way inflator hose that comes with the up/down push button BC.

Can't really agree with ANY of this.

Weight integrated BC's are the norm, NOT the exception. Why NOT teach with them?

If a student wants to wear a purge valve mask, so what? Our LDS has a bunch of masks that students can try, including the purge valve.

Up/down push button BC's are not common, and I seriously doubt many students would show up with one. However if they do, teach them how to dive it!

The OW certification process is World-wide! There is no reason for PADI or other agencies to narrow the criteria to a point were some shops may not be able to teach based on their gear on hand?

I doubt our LDS has enough weight belts to even run a large class! :eyebrow:

But they do have PLENTY of weight integrated BC's!
 
I second the OP. IMHO, the diving instruction should include real diving equipment, not resort certification toys.

I'd suggest my Zeagle Stiletto is "REAL DIVING EQUIPMENT", and not a resort toy. But, no weight belt required! :D

IMO a certification agency should be able to teach anyone using any type of gear... period. This would exclude rebreathers as they are not beginner gear, but IMO anything else is valid.

If an LDS chooses NOT to teach say someone in a lever BC, then they need to provide a rental BC, and I'd say at no additional charge.

If someone shows up with broken down worn out gear that is one thing. If they show up in a $600 Cressi Aero Sub BC, IMO you BEST teach them how do dive in that thing! :D
 
Regarding BC's and various other equipment choices: I think the main thing to really emphasize with students is that there is some variation in how different scuba equipment brands and configurations work, and that it is vital that they always fully understand how to setup and operate their equipment before using it.

None of this stuff is rocket science... the instructor, dive shop, or an experienced dive buddy can explain correct use in just a few minutes, and assuming the new diver has the fundamentals of diving mastered, they'll be just fine with their new BC, etc.

Safe Diving!
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/perdix-ai/

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