What are good BC's?

[octopuppy]

Aqualung i3 (Aqua Lung: First to Dive - i3) has a whole new purge/inflate system. No futzing with hoses, just an up/down handle on the side. Great for subtle tweaks. Also has integrated secondary instead of octo option. Just got back from Coz last week and it was perfect for flying close to the reefs on drift dives. In any case, try your options out in a pool and do a test drive before you buy.

 

[scubacoots3]

zeagle or dive rite

 

[divermatt]

I do it quite often with a vest and I've been doing it for 19 years.



You avoid the slide (which is not really an issue). I'll avoid 100 lbs of tanks crushing my nuts.



That's a very good thing if it's at the highest point when in both vertical and prone positions.



Obviously. It's also the one used by most divers almost all the time.



What poor technique is that?



It does not condition divers to do any such thing. Most divers use their inflator hose exclusively to dump air regardless of how many dumps are in their BC. I use the right shoulder dump almost exclusively. I can't remember the last time I used another method of dumping air.



No arguments there, except that the over pressure valve is not also known as a rear dump. An over pressure valve can be in other positions. I prefer the right shoulder to the rear dump.

I'm pretty sure that the "crushing my nuts" comment is the reason that there is cola all over my screen right now.

 

[Walter]

Tobin,

You seem terribly defensive.

I never said it was impossible. Anecdotal reports from a single user is not evidence of common usage. Any casual poll of divers using doubles will reveal the majority are using a plate and wing.

...and I never said it was common. You are attempting to argue with me over a point on which we agree. Such a survey won't reveal just a majority, but a vast majority, due to a large degree to the myth that a BP/wing is the only possible way to dive doubles.

Can you show me any reported incidence of "crushed nuts" due to a properly adjusted hogarthian harness?

Of course not, it was a joke. I've used a BP/wing and have never had a problem. OTOH, I've never had a problem "with ~100 lbs of tanks and gas and regs sliding down your back if you are heads down." It just doesn't hapen.

Can you show me a wing with wide spread distribution today that lacks this very feature?

Once again you are getting defensive when I was merely agreeing with you.

Ah no, not quite. The overwhelming majority of jacket BC's sold today feature a cable operated "pull dump" located at the "fill" fitting on the BC. Yanking on the corrugated hose operated these "pull dumps" That's not the same as raising the inflator and venting via the oral inflate valve.

Yes, they do and no, they aren't necessary. But that doesn't really address the point does it? The vast majority of divers are not reaching "every where when they need to vent gas," they are reaching for one point - the LPI. They may not be using it they way you or I think is best, but they are reaching to only one point.

Good technique will allow venting with only two, the Oral inflate, and the rear OPV or Rear Dump.

Actually, good technique will allow venting with only one. Any others are not necessary, but may be nice to have.

Then why do you suggest that additional dumps improve the BC?

I don't care about the rear dump, it's not needed (I've never used mine), but experience has shown me lots of folks like them. An ideal BC for me would have two methods of dumping air, the LPI hose without a pull dump attachment (just like you like) and the over pressure relief valve located at the right shoulder.

Ah well..... yes it is. Do search here or on TDS using "rear dump" include the quotes.

Let me know what you discover.

I find over 500 posts that I'm not about to weed through. The bottom line is that while the rear dump is a over pressure relief valve, an over pressure relieve valve is not necessarily a rear dump. I've yet to see a BC without an over pressure relief valve, but I've seen lots of them with no rear dump.

Also check this link DIR-diver.com - Dumpvalve
Peter Steinhoff refers to the OPV as a "dump valve" This valve is of course at the "rear" or lower portion of the wing, and is in close proximity to the diver's very own "rear"

He never says that an over pressure relief valve must be located at the rear.

Apparently even you use the term rear dump to describe the OPV / Dump valve found on many BC's....... Unless there is some other kinda "rear dump" I've never seen.....

Only to describe those that are located at the rear and only if it's designed to also be used to manually dump air from the BC. For those located elsewhere, I don't use the term. Some over pressure relief valves I call a right shoulder dump and still others I call an over pressure relief valve because they are not designed for manual dumping.

I'm pretty sure that the "crushing my nuts" comment is the reason that there is cola all over my screen right now.

Sorry about that, but drinks and computers really don't mix.

 

[Hockeynut]

You avoid the slide (which is not really an issue). I'll avoid 100 lbs of tanks crushing my nuts.

I may never recover!!

 

[cool_hardware52]

...and I never said it was common. You are attempting to argue with me over a point on which we agree. Such a survey won't reveal just a majority, but a vast majority,

Ah so we agree that a BP&W is the preferred means of mounting doubles. Good, common ground.

due to a large degree to the myth that a BP/wing is the only possible way to dive doubles.

Are you now suggesting that this large majority of backplate wearing doubles divers have been duped? That they would be better off using jacket BC's with their 2 x 130's?

It has been my consistent experience that as most divers gain experience, the less they rely on marketing BS, the less likely they are to swayed by the LDS. Most divers routinely diving doubles have been at it long enough to determine what works. Contrast that with the typical new diver who has no idea, but is still "under the spell" of their newest hero, the dive instructor at the LDS.

Which group more often buys gear they regret?

Of course not, it was a joke. I've used a BP/wing and have never had a problem. OTOH, I've never had a problem "with ~100 lbs of tanks and gas and regs sliding down your back if you are heads down." It just doesn't hapen.

So the standard against which all things diving is to be measured is whether or not Walter himself has seen it happen? If Walter has not experienced something it does not exist. Ok, got it. Guess all those "Hog" harnesses with crotch straps are just being used by the legions of DDD's, "Duped Doubles Divers"

Yes, they do and no, they aren't necessary.

If multiple dumps are not necessary why do you rate BC's that have them higher than those that do not? They add little or nothing of value, but do increase the cost and potential failure points.

Actually, good technique will allow venting with only one.

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

Any others are not necessary, but may be nice to have.

What exactly is nice about a "feature" that is unnecessary, and adds potential failure points?

OPV's are BTW, more than a theoretical failure point. I've seen:

OPV's that have unscrewed and have been lost.

OPV that have been fouled with debris, seaweed, and more often excess dried sealant used by some (not DSS) to try and glue the power inflator on to the corrugated hose. This holds the valve open.

I don't care about the rear dump, it's not needed.

Again the "Walter" Standard. If Walter doesn't use them they are unnecessary.

An ideal BC for me would have two methods of dumping air, the LPI hose without a pull dump attachment (just like you like) and the over pressure relief valve located at the right shoulder.

If your power inflator was to fall off, unlikely but not unknown, you can still trap gas in the bc by keeping the end of the hose below the level of the gas in the BC.

If a rear dump was to be lost a BC / wing can still trap gas with the diver in a heads up position.

If a shoulder mounted OPV fails how do you trap gas in the BC?

I find over 500 posts that I'm not about to weed through. The bottom line is that while the rear dump is a over pressure relief valve, an over pressure relieve valve is not necessarily a rear dump.

Quite true, and not at issue here.

Previously you made the claim that the OPV was not known as a "Rear Dump"

except that the over pressure valve is not also known as a rear dump.

The fact remains that the term "rear dump" enjoys wide, popular usage when referring to wings. (Wings BTW, are a type of BC)

He never says that an over pressure relief valve must be located at the rear.

DIR-diver.com - Dumpvalve

This link clearly refers to the OPV as a "dumpvalve" and it is clearly located at the bottom, or "rear" of the wing. I won't presume to speak for Peter, but I'd guess that he never considered mounting a OPV on the right shoulder of a wing.

Tobin

 

[Zieg]

So, is it that you just have a problem with Walter making some general statements to answer the OP's questions, or is it that you have a problem with Walter? Seems to me you just want to argue with him. Well,

Ah so we agree that a BP&W is the preferred means of mounting doubles. Good, common ground.

So the standard against which all things diving is to be measured is whether or not Walter himself has seen it happen? If Walter has not experienced something it does not exist. Ok, got it. Guess all those "Hog" harnesses with crotch straps are just being used by the legions of DDD's, "Duped Doubles Divers"

Are you now suggesting that this large majority of backplate wearing doubles divers have been duped? That they would be better off using jacket BC's with their 2 x 130's?

That's not what he's waying. He's saying that the ONLY way to dive doubles is with a bp/w is a MYTH. What's wrong with that. There is more than one way to dive doubles. Walter is not the only diver in the world who doesn't use bp/w's to dive doubles. I, for one, dive doubles with a jacket, also. Guess what, with a properly fitted jacket, doubles are worn quite comfortably and not necessarily do you need a crotchstrap.

As another example, there are a whole lot of navy divers here is Panama City that routinely dive doubles without bp/w's, and they dive quite well. They dive doubles using simple harnesses and good old fashioned horsecollars. These horsecollars, which again work quite well, have OPV's that are not rear dump values.

Previously you made the claim that the OPV was not known as a "Rear Dump"

The fact remains that the term "rear dump" enjoys wide, popular usage when referring to wings. (Wings BTW, are a type of BC)

DIR-diver.com - Dumpvalve

This link clearly refers to the OPV as a "dumpvalve" and it is clearly located at the bottom, or "rear" of the wing. I won't presume to speak for Peter, but I'd guess that he never considered mounting a OPV on the right shoulder of a wing.

Tobin

As for your link, as Walter stated, an over pressure relieve valve is not necessarily a rear dump. There are plenty of perfectly good BC's out there that have OPV's located other places besides the rear.

Just so you won't think I'm some type of anti-dir,bp/w,crotch-strap wacko, I do use a bp/w w/crotch-strap, for both singles and doubles. My wife uses a Halcyon bp/w with a crotch-strap. I prefer to use a ScubaPro Classic jacket, it fits very well and is quite comfortable. In fact I tend to use all types of gear, both new and old.

 

[cool_hardware52]

So, is it that you just have a problem with Walter making some general statements to answer the OP's questions, or is it that you have a problem with Walter? Seems to me you just want to argue with him.

Trust me, if I could avoid interacting with Walter I would. I count to ten before I respond to any of Walter's posts. I will not however let what I consider to be mis information being offered to an admitted newbie. What I object to is personal opinion being presented as fact.

That's not what he's waying. He's saying that the ONLY way to dive doubles is with a bp/w is a MYTH. What's wrong with that. There is more than one way to dive doubles. Walter is not the only diver in the world who doesn't use bp/w's to dive doubles. I, for one, dive doubles with a jacket, also. Guess what, with a properly fitted jacket, doubles are worn quite comfortably and not necessarily do you need a crotchstrap.

Please read what I've written. You are misrepresenting my position.

I have never said that it was impossible to use doubles with anything but a BP&W.
In post #10 I said

I never said it was impossible. Anecdotal reports from a single user is not evidence of common usage. Any casual poll of divers using doubles will reveal the majority are using a plate and wing.

Walter claims that the wide spread use of BP&W's is a direct result of some myth. See here.

...and I never said it was common. You are attempting to argue with me over a point on which we agree. Such a survey won't reveal just a majority, but a vast majority, due to a large degree to the myth that a BP/wing is the only possible way to dive doubles.

Can you or Walter provide any supporting evidence that the overwhelming choice of a BP&W for doubles is not that the users find a BP&W a better solution, but are the result of a myth?

As another example, there are a whole lot of navy divers here is Panama City that routinely dive doubles without bp/w's, and they dive quite well. They dive doubles using simple harnesses and good old fashioned horsecollars. These horsecollars, which again work quite well, have OPV's that are not rear dump values.

Try not to loose sight of the purpose of this thread. We have a new sport diver asking about BC's. Would you suggest that doubles + horse collar would be a good way for a new diver to start out?

If we had a new navy diver inquiring about gear my advice would be to check with navy as they likely have requirements different from sport diving.

As for your link, as Walter stated, an over pressure relieve valve is not necessarily a rear dump. There are plenty of perfectly good BC's out there that have OPV's located other places besides the rear.

How long do you wish to beat this dead horse? I have already agreed with Walter that not every OPV is in fact a "rear dump" in this exchange.

The bottom line is that while the rear dump is a over pressure relief valve, an over pressure relieve valve is not necessarily a rear dump.

Quite true, and not at issue here.

That still does not invalidate my reference to an OPV as a rear dump. These terms are used interchangeably with regard to wings. Believe or not some people don't know what "OPV" means, but they do know what dump valve is. Remember I talk to divers much like the OP in this thread every day. It's what I do for a living.

Just so you won't think I'm some type of anti-dir,bp/w,crotch-strap wacko, I do use a bp/w w/crotch-strap, for both singles and doubles. My wife uses a Halcyon bp/w with a crotch-strap.

If you consider a crotch strap unnecessary, as you have stated above, why do you choose to use plates and harnesses that include a crotch strap?

Can you detail for me the advantages and disadvantages of multiple dump valves, and the advantages and disadvantages of dump valves located at the top of a BC?

Tobin

 

[1_T_Submariner]

If you don't want a backplate and wing. A zeagle scout or ranger. If money and simplicity is a concern the scout is a great deal like $215 at scubatoys.

Zeagle Scout BCD, BCDS: Women, Zeagle, Zeagle Scout BCD

 

[Walter]

Tobin, the only misinformation I've seen in this thread has come from you. You contradict yourself in the same post and you try to twist what I've said into what you wanted me to say. Sorry but it doesn't work.

Ah so we agree that a BP&W is the preferred means of mounting doubles. Good, common ground.

Another attempt at twisting my words. We agree it's the most common. We agree it's the method you prefer.

Are you now suggesting that this large majority of backplate wearing doubles divers have been duped? That they would be better off using jacket BC's with their 2 x 130's?

I'm suggesting many folks have no idea there is an option. I'm now suggesting you are playing fast and loose with the truth by implying the large majority of backplate wearing doubles divers dive with twin 130s. We both know that while there are some, most are using smaller tanks.

So the standard against which all things diving is to be measured is whether or not Walter himself has seen it happen? If Walter has not experienced something it does not exist. Ok, got it. Guess all those "Hog" harnesses with crotch straps are just being used by the legions of DDD's, "Duped Doubles Divers"

Substitute "Tobin" for "Walter" in the above quote and we'll have your standard. As for me, I know others don't necessarily agree with my opinions and accept that. I know other folks like rear dumps, so I mention them instead of being close minded and suggesting if I don't use it, it's junk. Furthermore, I have no vested interest in selling any type of gear. Do you have that same lack of interest when you suggest a BP/wing?

If multiple dumps are not necessary why do you rate BC's that have them higher than those that do not? They add little or nothing of value, but do increase the cost and potential failure points.

Tell me please Tobin, is there a BC on the market with only a single dump? You advocate multiple dumps here:

Good technique will allow venting with only two, the Oral inflate, and the rear OPV or Rear Dump.

For myself, I only need one, I like having that second dump, but I don't need it. I realize some folks, like you, also like having that rear dump, so I mention it as well.

That's exactly what I said in my first post.

No, you didn't. In your first post, you said:

Almost all wings have the fill hose at or very near the "top" of the wing. The fill hose is a means to vent the wing. Festooning a bc with multiple dump valves is the classic example of adding gear to compensate for poor technique. It adds cost, failure points and conditions the diver to reach every where when they need to vent gas.

All BC's need at least one OPV (over pressure valve, aka rear dump) and a fill hose / power inflator. More than that is decoration, IMO.

You did not say:

Actually, good technique will allow venting with only one.

What exactly is nice about a "feature" that is unnecessary, and adds potential failure points?

Depends on exactly which feature. For example, a BC is unnecessary and adds potential failure points. What's nice about using a BC? Yes, a dump valve can fail. Yes, they have failed. I've seen them fail. Are you so over weighted you can't swim your rig up? You shouldn't be. If the dive plan call for a rig that is that heavy, you should also plan for a backup lift system such as a dry suit or lift bag.

If a shoulder mounted OPV fails how do you trap gas in the BC?

I wouldn't. I would abort the dive by swimming to safety stop depth, staying there for 5 minutes and then exit the water.

Quite true, and not at issue here.

Do you know you agreed that while the rear dump is a over pressure relief valve, an over pressure relieve valve is not necessarily a rear dump?

Previously you made the claim that the OPV was not known as a "Rear Dump"

Yes, I did and you just agreed with me on that point.

The fact remains that the term "rear dump" enjoys wide, popular usage when referring to wings.

That's not at issue and it is not confined to BP/wings, but used with other BCs as well.

(Wings BTW, are a type of BC)

Yes, I'm quite aware of it and have often corrected folks when they've said otherwise. What's your point?

This link clearly refers to the OPV as a "dumpvalve" and it is clearly located at the bottom, or "rear" of the wing.

Yes, but that's not in dispute, only your assertion that all over pressure relief valves are rear dumps.

I won't presume to speak for Peter, but I'd guess that he never considered mounting a OPV on the right shoulder of a wing.

Very good, now please stop trying to speak for me. It doesn't matter if he's ever considered it or not. Others have mounted them on the right shoulder and other locations as well.

Trust me, if I could avoid interacting with Walter I would. I count to ten before I respond to any of Walter's posts.

After counting to ten, reread what I've posted, you seem to miss what I've said quite often. After you've written your reply, you should read it over. You might not contradict yourself as often.

I will not however let what I consider to be mis information being offered to an admitted newbie.

Then stop doing it.

What I object to is personal opinion being presented as fact.

I have not done so. I gave facts about BCs, then explained why I believe certain features are good or bad. If you can't understand that all posts about value are purely opinion, that's your problem. For example:

No padding - Padding requires additional weight, yet compresses at depth so it no longer cushions. Additionally, air in a BC lifts the BCs weight off your back rendering padding redundant. Padding also increases drag, making dives in current more difficult and increasing your air consumption.

You agreed when you posted your opinion:

very true. Padding, and padded cummerbunds add needless buoyancy

We agree on this point, but it's simply our opinions. Were you posting your opinion as fact? Is that OK for you, but a sin for others? Or were you expecting folks to be able to see that your statement was obviously your opinion? You should be aware that other divers disagree with us. Most divers do not see padding as needless buoyancy. That padding adds buoyancy is a fact. That padding compresses at depth is fact. That air in the BC lifts the BCs weight off your back is a fact. That the additional buoyancy is needless is opinion. That padding is something to avoid in a BC is opinion.

I have never said that it was impossible to use doubles with anything but a BP&W.

It's hard to say, you seemed to say it was impossible, but contradicted yourself in the next sentence of post #8. See below:

You can only use doubles with a BP/wing (you can wear doubles with any BC as long as the BC has enough lift).

I disagree.

You disagree that it can be done, implying it's impossible.

While it may be possible to use doubles with some jackets it is very seldom done.

Now you contradict yourself by saying it is possible and then change the subject by saying it is very seldom done, something that was not at issue.

Walter claims that the wide spread use of BP&W's is a direct result of some myth.

I never said that. First, the use of BP/wings is not all that widespread when compared to other BCs in use. Next, I never claimed that use of BP/wings is due to myth. I merely stated that it is a myth that it is impossible to dive doubles without a BP/wing. When I said, "Such a survey won't reveal just a majority, but a vast majority, due to a large degree to the myth that a BP/wing is the only possible way to dive doubles." I did overstate the case a bit. You have my sincere apology. I was wrong to state it in that manner. We'll never know how much the myth has affected BC choice in diving twins.

Try not to loose sight of the purpose of this thread.

You seem to have lost sight of that in post #8 when you got me in your sights.

How long do you wish to beat this dead horse? I have already agreed with Walter that not every OPV is in fact a "rear dump" in this exchange.

You did, but then you started beating that horse again when you contradicted yourself on that point.

That still does not invalidate my reference to an OPV as a rear dump.

Actually, it does. A rear dump is an over pressure relief valve, but an over pressure relief valve is not necessarily a rear dump. I know you already agreed, but then you disagreed, then you agreed, now you're disagreeing again. Do you even know what you think on this topic?

These terms are used interchangeably with regard to wings.

If referring to a specific BC that only has two dumps, one being the inflator hose and the other being the rear dump, that would be correct, but only in that specific situation.

Believe or not some people don't know what "OPV" means, but they do know what dump valve is.

I believe it.

Remember I talk to divers much like the OP in this thread every day. It's what I do for a living.

That is a frightening thought.