Can I use a single wing for doubles?
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PerroneFord
Contributor
We can certainly agree to disagree. That's cool. But I'd like to ask you a few questions if you wouldn't mind.
We likely have different definitions of streamlined. But that's ok. So here are my questions:
1. What is the rationale behind 95# of lift? A set of steel 104s is about 25# negative. Add a steel plate at 6#, two steel 72s at 10# each, and we're at 51# negative. Maybe add a couple lights, reel, shears, etc., and we can get to 60. Where does the other 45# of lift come in?
2. I have generally observed that nearly every diver who dives one of the OMS 95# bungied wings is a north east diver, or ironically, a UK diver around the same latitude where OMS markets their gear. This is a curious coincidence to me. I had an opportunity to work with one of these UK divers who had come over for CCR and cave training. Observing him struggling in the pool, I suggested some changes, and changed out his wing for a more common cave wing. He remarked how much less effort it took to swim. The difference was clear to me, the instructor, and the diver. So it caused me to wonder how many of these divers using those large bungied wings might actually like something else if given the opportunity to try it, and if they approached it with an open mind. So in your experience, how many of those highly accomplished divers with bungied 95s have tried other options?
I don't know who's right. What I do know is that my observations from trying that gear, and working with divers using that gear, have shown me that gear may be less optimal than they originally thought. So I am curious if those divers who have settled on the 95# bungied wings have tried a dozen other options as I have, and as other of us have when we are making our comparative statements.
I agree that there may well be more than one correct or succesful way to do something. But there is often a lot of wrong ways. Those can generally be sorted out quite quickly with some clear thinking and some testing. However, it does require approaching things with an open mind.
We likely have different definitions of streamlined. But that's ok. So here are my questions:
1. What is the rationale behind 95# of lift? A set of steel 104s is about 25# negative. Add a steel plate at 6#, two steel 72s at 10# each, and we're at 51# negative. Maybe add a couple lights, reel, shears, etc., and we can get to 60. Where does the other 45# of lift come in?
2. I have generally observed that nearly every diver who dives one of the OMS 95# bungied wings is a north east diver, or ironically, a UK diver around the same latitude where OMS markets their gear. This is a curious coincidence to me. I had an opportunity to work with one of these UK divers who had come over for CCR and cave training. Observing him struggling in the pool, I suggested some changes, and changed out his wing for a more common cave wing. He remarked how much less effort it took to swim. The difference was clear to me, the instructor, and the diver. So it caused me to wonder how many of these divers using those large bungied wings might actually like something else if given the opportunity to try it, and if they approached it with an open mind. So in your experience, how many of those highly accomplished divers with bungied 95s have tried other options?
These divers are highly trained, experienced and accomplished, like most of the divers in this thread. What is unsafe and sub-optimal to some here is perfectly safe and optimal to the divers I know. Who's right??
I don't know who's right. What I do know is that my observations from trying that gear, and working with divers using that gear, have shown me that gear may be less optimal than they originally thought. So I am curious if those divers who have settled on the 95# bungied wings have tried a dozen other options as I have, and as other of us have when we are making our comparative statements.
I certainly agree that it merits discussion, but there is never ONLY ONE right way to do something. Therefore, I agree to disagree.
I agree that there may well be more than one correct or succesful way to do something. But there is often a lot of wrong ways. Those can generally be sorted out quite quickly with some clear thinking and some testing. However, it does require approaching things with an open mind.
Hmm and now to some up what I've learned on this thread:
Tobin is a Borg leader
PerroneFord and others are Borg drones.
They believe resistance is futile.
Anyone that hasn't been assimalated doesn't count because they aren't Tech.
Because I don't conform to Borg tech I'm actually already dead so it really doesn't matter.
I'm sure glad the Federation rep from Dive Rite made an appearance in this solar system.
OMS is part of the Federation but you need to be telepathic to get customer support. I'm sure my OMS tech gear doesn't work because OMS customer support (that I've never needed) isn't up to snuff.
Finally as we all know a few manufacturers do offer wing models rated for both singles and doubles use. If there was a significant safety issue in using one of these dual purpose wings don't you think some smart lawyer would have made it into a legal case that would at least caused the model to be discontinued, the rating changed or cause the manufacturer to go bankrupt.
Tobin is a Borg leader
PerroneFord and others are Borg drones.
They believe resistance is futile.
Anyone that hasn't been assimalated doesn't count because they aren't Tech.
Because I don't conform to Borg tech I'm actually already dead so it really doesn't matter.
I'm sure glad the Federation rep from Dive Rite made an appearance in this solar system.
OMS is part of the Federation but you need to be telepathic to get customer support. I'm sure my OMS tech gear doesn't work because OMS customer support (that I've never needed) isn't up to snuff.
Finally as we all know a few manufacturers do offer wing models rated for both singles and doubles use. If there was a significant safety issue in using one of these dual purpose wings don't you think some smart lawyer would have made it into a legal case that would at least caused the model to be discontinued, the rating changed or cause the manufacturer to go bankrupt.
We were never talking about "superiority" in this thread.
However it has been asked what works and the question of safety did rise.
Also safe usable choice has been withing the debate.
Does seem to me that some have expressed that their way is the only safe way while others can see sensible choices within certain guidelines as safe, usable and budget minded.
TS&M will be hurt that you've lumped her in with the rest of the drones.
So the challenge for you is to find Picard. Who has actually been assimilated, experienced the philosophies, and turned around and said "this is a crap way to dive" rather than just look in from the outside and make third-party pronouncements?
nereas
Contributor
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Tobin, I happen to know that AG believes exactly the same way as you do on this, and since you are both the best equipment people in the industry, I would certainly defer to you both. And since I own 3 wings (an 18 lb oval for the tropics, an 40 lb oval for cold water, and an 50 lb U for tech) I am in complete concurrence.
On the O/P's original question, whether you could use a single oval wing for doubles, I believe the answer is NO.
On the side issue of whether one wing would work for both singles and doubles, I believe a 50 lb U-shaped wing would be OK. Not life threatening, and not great, but OK.
Since it helps DSS for divers to buy more than one wing, I can see where you are coming from.
nereas
Contributor
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TS&M will be hurt that you've lumped her in with the rest of the drones.
So the challenge for you is to find Picard. Who has actually been assimilated, experienced the philosophies, and turned around and said "this is a crap way to dive" rather than just look in from the outside and make third-party pronouncements?
TSM is almost there! She is a smart lady (surgeon) and so there is hope she will dissimilate yet, even on her own, even without professional deprogramming.
Her hubby is definitely there!!
I will keep working on her.
foles1972
Guest
Hey Perrone. I certainly don't mind answering questions.
1. I agree that the extra lift may be overkill. But in some cases it can be useful. One diver I know was sucked under the hull of a shipwreck by strong current and pinned against the hull. The current was undermining the sand from under the wreck...he said he had to fully inflate to get out of the current and from under the hull. Unusual circumstance? Maybe. But he said he probably wouldn't have been able to do it without the extra lift.
2. Where we live (on Cape Cod) there are only a couple of dive stores. The dive shop that my friends and I use carries OMS and some Apeks stuff for tech gear. They have also recently started carrying some Dive Rite gear. This is what people use because this is what's available. Not to mention that it is quality gear. I know that a couple of the guys have tried different gear, but they liked the OMS the best. One is an OW instructor at the shop and a tech diver working on getting his tech diving instructor rating.
I want to point out that I have not said in any of my posts that this equipment is the best gear to use for tech diving. I have simply been trying to say that is a suitable alternative to other gear. Some people on this thread like to jump all over other people for presenting an opinion that differs from their own.
1. I agree that the extra lift may be overkill. But in some cases it can be useful. One diver I know was sucked under the hull of a shipwreck by strong current and pinned against the hull. The current was undermining the sand from under the wreck...he said he had to fully inflate to get out of the current and from under the hull. Unusual circumstance? Maybe. But he said he probably wouldn't have been able to do it without the extra lift.
2. Where we live (on Cape Cod) there are only a couple of dive stores. The dive shop that my friends and I use carries OMS and some Apeks stuff for tech gear. They have also recently started carrying some Dive Rite gear. This is what people use because this is what's available. Not to mention that it is quality gear. I know that a couple of the guys have tried different gear, but they liked the OMS the best. One is an OW instructor at the shop and a tech diver working on getting his tech diving instructor rating.
I want to point out that I have not said in any of my posts that this equipment is the best gear to use for tech diving. I have simply been trying to say that is a suitable alternative to other gear. Some people on this thread like to jump all over other people for presenting an opinion that differs from their own.
Thank you for that, I completely agree.
PerroneFord
Contributor
My dear man...
How DARE you insult the Borg Queen this way!
TS&M is the Borg Queen
I am on the Borg Scout Team
Tobin is Primary Borg Support
Clearly resistance IS futile!
Dive Rite = Klingons
OMS = Romulans
If you're going to label people, get it right.
Smart lawyers avoid diving suits because technical diving companies have small wallets. These are often VERY small companies run by one or two people. When you call the likes of Salvo, DSS, etc., and the owner picks up the phone, you're dealing with small companies. Dive Rite is a bit bigger as is Halcyon, but not by a lot.
So if these hybrid wings, or life rafts masquerading as wings get it done for you have at it...
How DARE you insult the Borg Queen this way!
TS&M is the Borg Queen
I am on the Borg Scout Team
Tobin is Primary Borg Support
Clearly resistance IS futile!
Dive Rite = Klingons
OMS = Romulans
If you're going to label people, get it right.
Smart lawyers avoid diving suits because technical diving companies have small wallets. These are often VERY small companies run by one or two people. When you call the likes of Salvo, DSS, etc., and the owner picks up the phone, you're dealing with small companies. Dive Rite is a bit bigger as is Halcyon, but not by a lot.
So if these hybrid wings, or life rafts masquerading as wings get it done for you have at it...
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