Halcyon Prouduction, DIR, and ironic facts of life

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newbie-in-fl once bubbled...
Yes the dive industry is supposed to operate
in a free market society. If external price
controls have been imposed by the manufacturers
on the LDS, this is technically an olgiopoly.
If the LDS was the only choice for the rec diver
to purchase gear there would not be a problem.
The problem arises in internet commerce that
has allowed divers to purchase gear at lower
prices (often much lower) than offered at the LDS.

Yes, as was the case until recently before web commerce. However, from my perspective this is the solution to the problem of what is increasingly becoming an inefficient business model in todays more competitive market environment.

So even the efficient dive store that offers
good service and gear often cannot compete
in the long term with the wholesaler. Can in point,
a local dive shop in our area with great service
and gear just shut its doors.[/B]


Sorry to hear about the loss of a store you liked. A basic fact of business is that the business "climate" is always changing requiring adaptation. There's only a handful of American companies over 100 years old. Most or all are probably unrecognizable from their original form. Seperation of equipment sales and instruction would produce greater competition in these two distinctly different areas. Consumers would reap some benefits.

since internet commerce is here to stay, the LDS should
be allowed to lower prices without penalty in order
to compete with the online retailers. [/B]


This brings up an excellent point. Given the fact of discounted online sales today and how most LDS's appear unable to compete in equipment sales. Is a manufacturer that prevents its dealers from competing in price - actually helping them and itself?

Halcyon, for example, can claim they will not sell to discounters or allow price competition between dealers on their products, so you won't find their merchandise at online discounters for less, or anywhere for that matter. This will cost them sales in two ways: against other manufacturer's products and against other dealers.

As more co.'s see the changing reality of the marketplace, (specially those interested in maximizing their full income potential) they will come to realize the need to sell to specialized equipment merchants in order to increase sales. As some begin exploiting this new outlet for sales, and if it becomes increasingly perceived as an advantage, others will be force to adopt this practice or they will fall behind the competition if this model becomes successful. Even if these sales come at the expense of their established dealers. A dealer with greater sales that maintains product integrity with good customer service is preferable to one which sells less product. Manufacturer dealer agreements are designed to be mutually beneficial. Both are always looking for better oportunity. These are generalizations.

Halcyon is probably perceived by most DIR influenced divers as a brand of superior products. However, success is a two edge sword. With the success of DIR and the gear associated with it, the competition for this increasing number of customers has begun to heat up. Which I suspect is a significant reason for Jarrods post and the attempt to trademark DIR by Halcyon, not GUE.

Others are starting to market and adopt products and training for the growing number of DIR customers. The new Oxycheq wing is off to a great start. If companies can make products that are perceived as good or perhaps even better than Halcyon's by DIR influenced customers, who I suspect are the bulk or at least a significant number of its customer base. Then, Halcyon and its dealers will be increasingly competing not only amongst each other, but with other dealers and products. Dealers will have to decide if its in their interest to promote what may be the more profitable Halcyon product per item, or another product with a lower profit per item, but greater number of item sales which could easily add up to greater profits. The inability of dealers to compete in price can easily compound any competitive problems, since it is one by its very nature. In addition, any misstep in quaility can prove very costly.

The successfuly created DIR mantra will insure it of at least a hard core loyal following as a small niche player in the near future.

Every company must choose its strategy.
 
I just wanted to close out my involvement in this thread with a quick note and then a post on the promised topics of DIR, GUE, and Halcyon.

As I anticipated there is a substantial range of back and forth on the several contentious issues presented here; this is particularly true when individuals fuel the fire with misrepresentations and dramatic presentation. Despite the ill will and predictions of doom relayed by some we are very healthy and focused on producing a quality offering within the industry. Imitation is, as they say, the sincerest form of flattery; I am confident that this will result in the elevation of industry standards. This is what many of us have argued for and worked toward for more than a decade. It is ironic that some promote the very same result as somehow a failure in our organizations and vindictively celebrate the positive impact of our efforts. I sit here typing this and am considerably entertained over the irony of this perspective. I encourage all of you and particularly those of you filled with misdirected anger to enjoy the humor here.

Regarding the issues we have discussed, I felt it only fair to represent that many of these postings are vast oversimplifications. This reality is often known to the poster as I have sometimes demonstrated and often a necessary byproduct of a person's hostile impressions. Regardless of the issues, it was merely my intent to provide you with an opposing point, one born from years of experience in areas that are usually unknown to those that are fueling the fire. My own representations should also be looked upon as necessarily subjective. I have strived to keep them free from the distracting nature of melodrama so that it is easier to appreciate my opinion of events. My "bias" is well known to you as I have made no effort to hide my identity or my relationship to these events. It would be nice if this were remotely true for the group as a whole.

My post about pricing was merely intended to provide everyone with a philosophical framework around which to consider the complexity of this issue. There are strong views here that support one extreme and I felt that it might be useful to round out the debate. In truth, both presentations are overly simplistic and any company has a wide range of issues that determine its course of action. Arguing about the range of these could fill many days and lead us full circle in endless debate.

Thank you for allowing me the time to present these issues. Starting today and spread over the next couple weeks I will post new topics engaging the issue of DIR, GUE, and Halcyon. Not at all contentious I am sure<G>

Best wishes to you all . . . really, I do mean all of you.
Jarrod
 
Can't wonder but if some of the previous posts were indicative of an agenda?It seems that folks bashing the industry,individual manufacturers and their pricing policies seem to the the prominent posters against a given make.Could this even bias a person?To mebbe state facts in a manner consistent with thier viewpoint?To use a command of the English language to color thier posts in such a manner?Nahhhhhhhhhhhhh.BTW my 3 yr old 18# has over 400 dives on it,it looks new and everything works.I purchased it used 3 yrs ago.It so impressed my buddies that several BP users have bought Halcyon stuff since.
 
I must assume that some your comments, Jarrod, are directed at my posts.

First about myself, like most posters here I use a pseudonym, and will gladly reveal my identity if you pm me. It is not because I'm trying to hide my identity in order to promote a hidden agenda. I speak of my experience here as a recreational scuba diver, with no ties to the industry except the aforementioned. I have become an observer and student in this field, and my comments are based on my knowledge and experience in other fields. Some, like business, which may be directly related, and others which are based simply on rational logic.

I attempted to directly address some of the issues you raised in order to provide some perspective as seen from my subjective view. Since this is all anyone can do. I don't believe I have ever posted anything about Halcyon on this list, much less negative.

I do have issues with the following:
fuel the fire with misrepresentations and dramatic presentation
ill will and predictions of doom
vindictively celebrate the positive impact of our efforts
person's hostile impressions

While you:
I have strived to keep them free from the distracting nature of melodrama so that it is easier to appreciate my opinion of events.
My post about pricing was merely intended to provide everyone with a philosophical framework around which to consider the complexity of this issue. There are strong views here that support one extreme and I felt that it might be useful to round out the debate.

So many DIR related arguments on this board seem to end in this manner. While the debate commences with issues, they always seem to end with insinuations and accusations of malicious intent, ignorance, etc. While I agree with you that the issue is a complex one indeed, without necessarily a right or wrong choice - rather a choice, why can't a difference of opinion be accepted recognizing that different individuals have different needs and views, and barring conclusive evidence to the contrary - debate the issues, without condemnation and vitriol?

I acknowledge your efforts and commend you on your success in this industry. I do not doubt that your intentions are good. Yet, it is tactics and argument dead ends such as these, which serve no interest in proving your point except with those eager to accept every DIR pronouncement, which are repeatedly practiced by perhaps the majority of DIR divers as a whole on these web forums, and severely turn me and many others off.

Best wishes and success.
 
stands.

Derogating the person taking an opposing point of view and shutting down discussion and debate doesn't serve to provide illumination.

The "dogma of DIR" simply boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong, look at the medals on my wall." Its a bankrupt debating tactic that, in any collegiate or even high school debate class would lead to the person using it being disqualified.

Many of the issues discussed here are indeed quite complex, and some of that complexity is intentionally put there by the manufacturers through the policies that are promulgated.

It is that very complexity that immediately renders suspect simple claims in pricing policy documents - or online in Internet discussions.

When a policy promotes complexity and intermingling of aspects of business, it raises even more eyebrows, as such an action immediately raises the question of whether such acts are in anyone's best interest - or are wise.
 
Scuba once bubbled...

insinuations and accusations of malicious intent, ignorance, etc.
<<<snip>>>
why can't a difference of opinion be accepted recognizing that different individuals have different needs and views, and barring conclusive evidence to the contrary - debate the issues, without condemnation and vitriol?

<<<snip>>>

Yet, it is tactics and argument dead ends such as these, which serve no interest in proving your point except with those eager to accept every DIR pronouncement, which are repeatedly practiced by perhaps the majority of DIR divers as a whole on these web forums, and severely turn me and many others off.

Not that Jarrod needs an apologist, as he handles himself with a lot of style here, but I don't see where you get your interpretation from his comments.

He hasn't insinuated anything. He's come right out and said it, in response to the kind of nonsense of which you are apparently accusing him.

As for accusations of ignorance, he did point out that some of the folks posting here didn't have all the information, or at least not accurate information on which to base their opinions, and at least in my case, rightly so. I was one of apparently many who contacted him directly to express some concerns, and his answer to me was enlightening in that it pointed up some misconceptions on my part. And condemnation and vitriol are pretty dramatic words to describe his posting here.

And your last paragraph reads like one whose mind was already made up about DIR, Halcyon, whatever.

I'll hazard a guess here, and please don't attribute any of what I'm about to say to Jarrod, because I've never heard or read him say anything like this. This is a personal opinion, but I know it's shared by a few others as well.

When some posters here speak pro and con about DIR, they are really just blowing smoke. The fact is, I firmly believe, that very few of us, despite claims to the contrary, are truly DIR as it is defined by the likes of Jarrod, and many of the detractors are more caught up in the personality conflicts with the zealous defenders of the faith than in the reality, and none of them really have a good handle on what DIR actually means to the true DIR diver.

Having followed the DIR wars on the internet for several years, I think it's a bonus to hear the explanation of the whole thing from one so close to the heart of the storm. Whether you agree or disagree with what he says, I for one would rather sit back and read what he has to say for now than listen to the detractors and wannabees who've had their turn for a long time. When he's done, then everyone can have it, or at him if he's willing to hang about, but at least we'll be milling fresh grist, and not the same old dry chaff.

It's pretty gutsy, and maybe stupid, for someone in Jarrod's position to come down to the trenchs, but it's refreshing, and perhaps we'll get a new perspective on the DIR story. Some folks I know and respect have serious issues with parts of the DIR/Halcyon thing, but I also know they respect Jarrod. I'm looking forward to reading any exchange between them. That's be the real deal, not stale leftovers. 8)


JohnF
 
Speaking of dogma. 8)

Genesis once bubbled...
stands.

Derogating the person taking an opposing point of view and shutting down discussion and debate doesn't serve to provide illumination.

The "dogma of DIR" simply boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong, look at the medals on my wall." Its a bankrupt debating tactic that, in any collegiate or even high school debate class would lead to the person using it being disqualified.

Many of the issues discussed here are indeed quite complex, and some of that complexity is intentionally put there by the manufacturers through the policies that are promulgated.

It is that very complexity that immediately renders suspect simple claims in pricing policy documents - or online in Internet discussions.

When a policy promotes complexity and intermingling of aspects of business, it raises even more eyebrows, as such an action immediately raises the question of whether such acts are in anyone's best interest - or are wise.
 
Genesis once bubbled...
stands.

The "dogma of DIR" simply boils down to "I'm right and you're wrong, look at the medals on my wall." Its a bankrupt debating tactic that, in any collegiate or even high school debate class would lead to the person using it being disqualified.


Hey Genesis,

I don't know if you have every read this legture by GI3 here...

http://www.baue.org/library/irvine_baue_talk.html

It went a long way into answering some of my whys and what fors I had about where they got their ideas.

If you can read past his arrogance, you may find that most of what they came up with was not to create a bunch of "mini- JJ's and GI3's" but to find a way to keep the death toll down and then later to iron problems out they had with conventional Deco's. I'm not very learned when it comes to Tech diving so I don't have any real experience to fault the body of the lecture but I will say that after reading this for the first time I went from approaching DIR with the attitude of "finding fault" to "shut up and learn".

You might be an experienced tech diver wise to the point that you don't feel you can learn much more from their approach. For a "wanna be" tech diver like myself, their system and approach is a tremendous benefit.

Mark
 
and I don't disagree with the general points being made. I've read that one before and yep - most of it is spot-on.

My perspective on the whole DIR thing, though, is that GI destroys all the good he does with lectures like this as soon as he starts with the "Deathspiration" spiels and similar cracks. And lord knows, he launches into plenty of them.

I've learned quite a bit about the "curve" of ascents and how to do them "right" - and it makes a difference! If you look at profiles I did a year ago, then look at them today, the "shape" of the ascent looks COMPLETELY different. It makes a HUGE difference in how you feel that evening; I come out of the water now and I'm ready to go off and have some dinner and relax - I'm not totally wiped out.

So yes, there is a lot of good info there, and as I said, I credit the "DIR crowd" with good information. The bad part isn't the data - its all the rhetoric.

We solve nothing with that - they solve nothing with that - and the problem with the approach is that it turns people off when what you want is exactly the opposite.

I'd like to see more of this "go mainstream." The major agencies are still teaching a continuous ascent from as deep as 130' all the way up to the 15' stop, 3 minutes there, then get out. That's insane. Some agencies have "moved up" their "depth limit" to 100' from 130', but that's not the problem - the problem is the ascent profile.

That's a pure crock.

I've shown a lot of people (by example!) how I do my ascents. You dive with me, I ain't going from 100' up to 15'! No way. I'm going to be stopping somewhere between 50-70' for a minute or so, and from 50' up I'll do every 10'. For shallower (60-70') stuff I'll stop at 40-50, then move up from there.

If PADI/SSI/NAUI/etc were to pay more attention to ascents and buoyancy control, it would make a huge difference. Also, put the Nitrox computations (there's a whole two of them!) into the BOW course and stop ripping people off with a worthless $150 class for what is really 2 algebraic computations worth of actual knowledge. That covers 90% of the recreational diving community right there, it leaves you feeling better at the end of the day, its safer and you have more fun.

I don't claim to be some uber-tech-diver. Maybe some day, but that day hasn't come, and it may never, simply because around here there is so much diving you can do in the 70-130' range that I don't know that I'll ever get tired of it.
 
https://www.shearwater.com/products/swift/

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