Heavy Fin Problems

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Dare I be flamed, but be careful arching your back. There was a recent article in Alert Diver about serious back ailments to divers who arch their backs.

Arching your back is common amongst cave divers... Doing so contributes exponentially to our trim.

To the OP: I had someone tell me once, and I am sure they read this forum. "Don't solve skill problems with gear." Use what one of the folks said on here about bending your legs more and arch your back. If you just recently started diving doubles I'd recommend you get a "mentor" or someone experienced with doubles to watch you in water and give you tips.

-Tony DC
 
Just to chime in, I use both the OMS Slipstreams and Diverite fins, and for exactly the same reason you describe. I have ScubaPro XL Jets and they are just too heavy.

I find the OMS Slipstreams a bit stiffer in the water, and that can lead to fatigue on longer dive, especially if you are pushing a big camera along but the OMS fins have larger foot pockets that I sometimes need.

Overall, I think the Diverite fins are terrific, pretty much the perfect balance of weight, stiffness and length for most diving.

Jeff
 
Arching your back is common amongst cave divers... Doing so contributes exponentially to our trim.

To the OP: I had someone tell me once, and I am sure they read this forum. "Don't solve skill problems with gear." Use what one of the folks said on here about bending your legs more and arch your back. If you just recently started diving doubles I'd recommend you get a "mentor" or someone experienced with doubles to watch you in water and give you tips.

-Tony DC


I agree with the "mentor" comment above. We don't know what we don't know. Having a mentor evaluate one's rig set up and our movements in the water, technique, etc, is invaluable. . . . . .
But once you've polished your technique, if you find that it didn't totally correct your trim issue, buy the lighter fins. I didn't want to give up my Jets. I did a lot of research on this board. I moved my tank up, added trim weights, learned to move in the water with my knees bent . . pulling my knees closer to my center of gravity, etc. I was still a tad foot heavy. The slipstreams fixed my issue.
I've also read that one should use caution with reference to adopting "arching the back" as part of one's technique. Though I am in full agreement that one should not use equipment to fix a technique problem I also understand that a given technique, or one's ability to perform it, has it's limitations.
 
But once you've polished your technique, if you find that it didn't totally correct your trim issue, buy the lighter fins. I didn't want to give up my Jets. I did a lot of research on this board. I moved my tank up, added trim weights, learned to move in the water with my knees bent . . pulling my knees closer to my center of gravity, etc. I was still a tad foot heavy. The slipstreams fixed my issue.
I've also read that one should use caution with reference to adopting "arching the back" as part of one's technique. Though I am in full agreement that one should not use equipment to fix a technique problem I also understand that a given technique, or one's ability to perform it, has it's limitations.

Excellent post Steve, that's my experience exactly. I tried all the above, even the back arch, still had a slight trim issue. Along with the other things I had done to correct my trim, the Slips were the final piece of the puzzle. When I got my trim right, I found no need to arch my back. I don't think "arching" ones back is the cure for the problem, I think it only treats a symptom of the problem... :palmtree: Bob
 
Arching your back is common amongst cave divers... Doing so contributes exponentially to our trim.
-Tony DC


I am fully aware of this technique since I have been a cave diver since 1996, and now have the back problems to prove it. Whether cave diving caused it or not, it does aggravate my back if I do not modify my position.

Again, reference the Alert Diver article written by a physician cautioning divers arching their backs and the adverse effects it has on your back, sometimes permanently.

I've pasted the article below, but it can also be accessed if you are a DAN member at .... http://www.diversalertnetwork.org/membership/alert-diver/article.asp?ArticleID=884



Alert Diver Article
Fixing Mystery Lower Back Pain from Scuba and Swimming
July / August 2008 Issue
By: Jolie Bookspan, M.Ed., Ph.D., FAWM


As divers, none of us are strangers to back pain. It comes with the territory, whether we are weekend warriors or regular exercise machines who workout daily. Back pain may be a fact of life, but it's what we do about it that counts.

Let's talk about back pain for watersports enthusiasts. For scuba divers, lifting and carrying heavy dive gear with bad lifting habits is a common and obvious cause of lower back pain. But lower back pain after scuba diving in which no gear lifting was involved is also a consideration. Plus, a swimmer can experience the same type of lower back pain after swimming.

With no heavy lifting involved, what's the cause?

A second major cause of lower back pain after diving and swimming is often overlooked. It's called hyperlordosis.


Hyperlordosis

When swimming or finning face down and horizontally through the water, many divers allow their lower back to increase in arch. They look like they are facedown in a hammock, as shown in Figure 1.

A small inward curve belongs in the lower back, but when the normal inward curve (normal lordosis) increases, the result is hyperlordosis or overarching (swayback).

For most people, hyperlordosis is most common when a person is upright, standing, walking and running. Swimmers and divers who allow their backs to overarch when swimming face down often notice the pain once they are topside, after their time in the water (Figure 2).


How hyperlordosis causes lower back pain

Hyperlordosis pinches the facets - the joints of the vertebrae - and the surrounding soft tissue. When someone with hyperlordosis swims and dives, the facets become the fulcrum of the kick instead of the muscles of the abdominals and hip. When someone stands with a hyperlordotic lower spine instead of a neutral spine, the weight of the upper body presses down on the overly pinched-backward lower back. Running with hyperlordosis causes more of the banging and pressing.


People with lower back pain from hyperlordosis usually feel they need to bend over forward, or sit, or raise one leg to relieve it. Often nothing shows up on X-rays and scans. Eventually, hyperlordosis can damage structures enough to show. Until then, it just aches a great deal.

The cause of this kind of pain is often unrecognized, and people may be told they have a condition called sacroiliac - or SI joint dysfunction - nonspecific back pain or other names.


Stop pain from hyperlordosis

Common prescriptions for relief of hyperlordotic pain call for any of the following measures:

injection into the facet joints
taking anti-inflammatory medications (such as NSAIDs)
a regimen of physical therapies
surgeries for damage to the facet joints

There may be alternative solutions, however. To begin, be conscious of your posture as often as you can. Try to maintain a neutral spine alignment: Simply, stop overarching when walking, running, swimming and diving. Remind yourself to assume normal posture. It is easy enough, and by using a healthy and normal spine, you'll be able to work out those kinks in your daily routine.

Until you switch to your new regimen, you may find it helpful to use a strengthening program and an occasional pain medication. Soon, however, you'll be on your way to a healthier back.

To see if you stand in hyperlordosis, check yourself in the following three ways:

Stand up and look sideways in a mirror. Your belt should be level-green line in left neutral drawing. The side seam in dress or trousers should be vertical from leg to waist not tilted forward at the hip. Back up slowly and gently into a wall. If your backside touches first, this may indicate that you lean forward at the hip. If your upper back touches first, it is usually a good indicator that you lean the upper body backward, which increases a second kind of hyperlordosis.

Stand with your back against a wall, with heels, hips, upper back and back of your head touching. There should be a small space between your lower back and the wall, but not a large space. See if you increase the space to get the back of your head touching. Then raise both arms overhead to touch your fingers to the wall behind you. See if the lumbar curve increases further. You should be able to stand with the back of your head touching the wall without increasing your lordosis, and you should be able to raise your arms without increasing it.

To reduce an overly large arch, try the following:

Stand with your back against a wall, with heels, hips, upper back and back of your head touching.
Put your hands on your hips, thumbs facing the back.
Roll your hip under so that your thumbs come downward in back.
Feel the large space between lower back and the wall become a smaller space.
Keep your heels, hips, upper back and the back of your head touching the wall, and stand tall and straight. Lower back pain that is caused by hyperlordosis should ease right away.
Keep the good neutral spine when you walk away from the wall and all the time. Apply it to when you are swimming and scuba diving.

Muscle use is not automatic

Your abdominal muscles are the muscles that hold a neutral spine. They do not do this automatically; that is why strengthening programs alone do little to stop back pain. Someone may have strong abdominals but stand and swim in arched posture, with continuing lower back pain.

Heavy scuba tanks don't make you arch your back or have bad posture. The problem occurs when you don't use your abdominal muscles to counter the pull and allow your back to arch.


When you stand up while wearing tanks, straighten your body against the pull of the load and maintain a neutral spine. Do not tighten your abdominals; just move your pelvis. If you notice yourself arching while wearing tanks, straighten your body as if you have begun to do a crunch but don't curl forward. Only straighten to a neutral spine. Don't tuck so much that you lean back or push your hips forward.

No more lower back pain

Transfer this neutral spine skill to your daily life for carrying gear, putting cargo up on racks, heavy packages on counters and whenever you lift and reach. Use a neutral spine when you stand, walk, run, reach overhead, swim and dive.

To prevent hyperlordotic pain, use a neutral spine. Use good bending form to prevent another kind of pain that comes from bending over incorrectly to lift gear. When you bend the knees in half-squat to pick up something, keep both heels down and the torso upright. When you swim and dive, your gear can become a built-in abdominal, back and leg muscle exercise for lifting and helping you maintain a neutral spine.

Back pain is complex and has multiple potential causes. The self-care concepts presented here may be helpful for some divers but are, in no way, meant to substitute for diagnosis, treatment and follow-up reassessments by an appropriate healthcare professional.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
About the Author
DR. Jolie Bookspan, a longtime scuba diver and instructor, has lived and dived with the Ama-San diving women of Japan. She is a researcher in extreme physiology. She is the author of Fix Your Own Pain With Drugs or Surgery (www.Dr.Bookspan.com).



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Ž© Alert Diver July / August 2008
 
Re-read the article carefully................. you would have to have a pre existing over arching of the back. Walking, running, sitting, carrying dive gear etc add to that. If you have a neutral spine in normal conditions, and go diving, arching your back for the duration of the dive, you are not going to create issues. At least that is what I comprehended from that article.
 
......I am not strong..... nor am I large.......I wear jets..... the problem I had was corrected by movement of my weights...... nothing on the hips.... all up the backplate (as in stainless backplate or weighted STA) or across the shoulders(weight on plates).

You fatigue yourself trying to fight your fins and keep up your hips..... place the weights evenly up your torso and the fins will not feel as if they weigh hardly anything. not fighting weight on your hips and bending your knees to bring fins tighter to body gives just enough stability to your hips and you are feeling good.

this was an ongoing battle for me, especially with doubles (in cold northern waters) until several DM and instructor friends watched me stuggle one day and realigned my weights(doubled up my Stainless plate and zip tied my wieghts around it).... I am greatful for friends like these...

my cave instructor (in FLA) kept my heavy stainless plate on my doubles and no weight anywhere else for same reason.... worked well

Just a suggestion before you buy something new......
 
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Re-read the article carefully................. you would have to have a pre existing over arching of the back. Walking, running, sitting, carrying dive gear etc add to that. If you have a neutral spine in normal conditions, and go diving, arching your back for the duration of the dive, you are not going to create issues. At least that is what I comprehended from that article.

I didn't get that at all from the article. And after re-reading, got the gist of how we should avoid arching, and work on muscle memory & strength to avoid the arching.

Interesting.....

I do know my back aches like a son of a gun after a long dive in doubles. Especially in areas that are vertically tight where I have had to arch most of the time. At least in areas that are not tight vertically, I can keep my back straight, bend my thighs at the hip downward, and knees upward to keep my fins up in the air. This will give me relief.

When I do come into a wide open area after tight vertical, you will see me ball up and hug my knees to my chest to get relief.

Usually my first stop after arriving back to the hotel is a grab for the NSAID bottle of choice.
 
interesting- i am head heavy with wetsuit,ss backplate, sp xl jetfins and spring straps. my tank ( lp95) is as low as i can place it and still reach the valve, if i were to inhale and not consciously maintain trim i would invert feet first and end up face up /feet up . i found a 3 lb soft weight zip tied to the crotch strap slot helps tremedously. as long as you are not overweighted maybe a weight placed toward your head could help.
 
I do know my back aches like a son of a gun after a long dive in doubles. Especially in areas that are vertically tight where I have had to arch most of the time. At least in areas that are not tight vertically, I can keep my back straight, bend my thighs at the hip downward, and knees upward to keep my fins up in the air. This will give me relief.

When I do come into a wide open area after tight vertical, you will see me ball up and hug my knees to my chest to get relief.
Post 17 may be where you need to look for answers. If you have to drop your knees ('bend my thighs at the hip downward, and knees upward to keep my fins up in the air.') to get relief, you have a configuration issue.
 
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http://cavediveflorida.com/Rum_House.htm

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