Does a dive flag protect you? Think again.

[Missdirected]

Everytime I hear some diver say we need more boater education, it makes me want to puke. It is the typical reaction of a person who does not really want to do much--and if they do this tiny thing, then they can feel good about themselves.

Dan, respectfully, I have to say I find many of your posts and thoughts on the subject to be off-base. For most of my life I have done a number of charitable/helpful things when I am able. Please allow for me to give an example, I once read about a young boy (8) with Leukemia. It was the daily local paper here that featured his story. They explained that his chances of finding a marrow donor match were incredibly slim due to his being hispanic and the number of hispanics on the marrow list were were extremely low. His community, if you will, needed educated on the subject. So whoop ti do they told the story of the boy. I felt for the boy, mine happened to be the same age at the time, but it was time to move on, right?

Anywho, I read through the story and yea I felt bad but what the heck is one person going to to do? Time for me to move on. No one would ever know any different, right? Wrong. I would know. I would know that at that particular time in my life I had the resource - TIME - to do something about it and make a difference. So I did along with 300 other people.

I set about educating his community on the need for hispanic donors. I called the blood bank and got in touch with the head of the marrow program and from there I got nearly three hundred people to come out and see if they could match this boy or another person on the list. I distinctly remember, the nurse arriving and seeing all the people lined up around the corner. The look of shock on her face was one I will never forget. She looked at me and said, "I didn't bring nearly enough nurses for all of these people". Was I proud - you bet your ass I was. Did I "feel good about myself" for doing what I did - heck yea! They did not find a donor out of the lot that I recruited but they did find a donor for him.

Each and every person that came out that day should feel good about themselves. They took a moment to step up to the plate and educate themselves and to give freely of themselves. Even those that could not give, for one reason or another, were now educated and they could now educate someone else. Something that may have seemed small snowballed into something huge.

Bottom line - effort is something that compounds. One person helping or giving.... Well you get the gist - it can grow exponentially. Berating your fellow divers by essentially stating their motives don't meet your standards or aren't good enough.... just boggles me.

Everyone has their own strengths. I can try to get divers aware of this, and help to create a critical mass of divers--a group large enough to accomplish something....I could also contribute money to a fund for getting the legislative work accomplished....there would also need to be attorneys and people with legislative experieince... and there would be many other strengths members here could bring to bear.

I can't say that after insulting those that are trying to do something, no matter how small in your eyes, by stating they want to make you puke, that they will want to follow you.

So, here we have a supposedly "active" group of Internet divers, who can sit back and do nothing over an incident like this Rob Murphy Tragedy...and where whining about better education about dive flags is the "easy out" a few "guilty" members of this huge group want to show thier solidarity with.

The only shot we have at fixing this ENORMOUS PROBLEM for all divers, is to "become a real group, a real force", a real lobbying group, and tirelessly fight for legislative changes and huge punitive measures..and the creation of a huge revenue stream for the local law enforcement agency responsible for each reef used by divers.

Dan V

Again, you are attacking those that would otherwise be an asset to accomplishing bigger goals. DivingPrincessE, started a petition group on FaceBook. So far with her one group, began on behalf of ChadCarney and his awareness plan, she has united 300+ divers. That my friend, is a real group consisting of real people and real divers. You take that group and give them something bigger and even more worthy to be a part of, you don't think that they would? Personally I think they would. However, they are going to care naught if they are being attacked, berated, or what have you.

I would say that 99.9 percent of the divers on this board took a drivers license exam..and that each knows it is illegal to speed. Strangely, a huge chunk of this 99%, speeds in their car, on a regular basis.
It is not about boaters "knowing" more about dive flags. It is about boaters "fearing" dive flags, or more specifically, fearing the ramifications of being caught speeding close by a dive flag.

Regards,
Dan V

Speeding is one thing, looking for pedestrians to run over is another. Personally, I think too many boaters buy boats but have no clue as to the "rules of the road", if you will.

My opinion on this issue is education followed by stiffer penalties but it starts with education. You take that drivers test and you are required to know the road signs and what each of them means. Following that, I believe when you get a boat one should be required to pay for and a take a USCG class. I took one, enjoyed it and found it to be very beneficial.

By requiring one to take a class and pass a test you have created monies for law enforcement to better enforce the laws and you have educated those that otherwise would not know any better.

Now do I have the time to take on this project and bring it to the next level? No, I do not at this time, as much as I'd like to. However, I am sure there are others who would be keen to head up something of this nature.

 

[drilldaddy_99]

Mostly here its complete ignorance as to what an international Alpha flag means. Usually weekend yachties or jet skiers. They need no qualifications for their vessel and as a result know nothing.

Ignorance is no excuse for the law though and if they do violate the Alpha flag regulations the coastguard can (and will) prosecute.

The american "diver" flag is completely meaningless in law here and in lots of the world though so that's worth bearing in mind if you're diving outside the USA - make sure you have a proper alpha flag.

Unfortunatly the Alpha flag is unknown to a lot of people here and the "American" diver down flag just makes people think you're a Van Halen fan.

 

[Doc Intrepid]

The bottom line in terms of enforcement of laws on the water is that there must be a law enforcement officer there to witness the violation. In many cases there isn't.

Cops will confirm that its hard enough to prosecute cases in court where evidence exists and witnesses exist. In many cases involving divers and boaters there is very little evidence, and very few if any witnesses (aside from the diver and boater involved).

In a perfect world it would be easier to identify and prosecute criminal behavior by boaters.

But there's a lot of water out there, and comparatively few law enforcement officers in boats.

For the moment, its a lot like motorcyclists and criminal behavior by car and truck drivers - motorcyclists are at the same disadvantage from other drivers on the road as divers are with respect to boaters.

There is not much that either motorcyclists or divers can do in the short run except to plan their activities with defensive behavior incorporated into their planning.

You are not going to be able to change much, at least in the near-term future.

Organize, petition, lecture - it's all good. And one day it might produce results. Maybe.

But the things that divers can do for themselves today, "defensive diving" if you will, are more likely to offer effective results in the immediate future.

FWIW...YMMV.

Doc

 

[J.R.]

We in our numbers, are quite a bit larger than manatees.

Yup... technically correct... but, as ScubaSteve001 pointed out, *we* aren't on the endangered species list... and, I'd add, *we* are much more capable of defending ourselves than the manatee...

We have a bigger right to slow zones near dive sites, than manatees do ( we vote and pay taxes, manatees do not

Well... if you assume that money gives you the right... you may have a point... but then, by extrapolation, the boating industry (which is MUCH larger than the dive industry) would, by your own yardstick... have an even greater claim than divers.

Far more revenue would be produced by ticketing boaters driving at excessive speeds, over south florida reefs when dive flags are present over the reef , and in proximity to the boaters.....and unlike the intracoastal waterway where the no-wake zones are annoying, a boater can easily run fast several hundred yards outside or inside of the reef structure, and this will not be significant in changing their arrival time, to whereever they are going.....but it would be significant in lessening the danger to divers.

Well... it's a big ocean... we only dive a little itty bitty part of it... so you want to put the WHOLE reef off limits to boaters? Yea... right... You don't fish do ya'???

 

[Cave Diver]

Awareness starts with us.

The fact we are having this discussion brings it one step closer to a solution.

 

[Nemrod]

Whoa - jet ski's are a public nuisance? Why, because in some cases there is a moron piloting the thing? Jet ski's are already one of the most policed and restricted watercraft out there and from my personal experience the MOST harassed by law enforcement as well. Throwing the whole industry under the bus because of the rental industry is a bit much, no? There are thousands of careful, responsible, PWC owners and drivers. To imply that as soon as a person sits on one they are beyond ignorant is just plain wrong.

Nope, not wrong, just my observation, they do not follow the rules, most are rented for a few hours. The renter has no investment or training or boating knowledge. They just jump on and blast off, ignore no wake zones, ignore all navigational rules, pass on left or right, zoom around in a circle erratically, jump my wake inches from my boat at high speed, no concept of right way or stand on vessel and in general act like idiots. Often they are drunk as well. If this sounds like being to inclusive, well, I have never seen ----ever---a jet skier who did not behave as I just described. And, at the boat ramps, they are worse, obnoxious, foul language, every sentence starts with the F adjective, cannot wait their turn, zoom around in the docking and loading area. Every single one I have ever seen behaves exactly this way, all the time 100%. What--you don't agree?

OBTW, your screen name, lol, exemplifies the personality type.

N

 

[Gary D.]

All the laws in the world will not protect people from other people's actions. Caring, considerate educated people are who protect people.

Gary D.

 

[ScubaSteve]

Caring, considerate educated people are who protect people.

Now THEY are on the endangered species list.

And you are right. A law will only make sure that the person who broke the law gets punished if caught. If they killed someone, they are still dead unfortunately. A law is nothing if not a deterrent (by this I simply mean that if someone is not worried about possible consequences, then a law means nothing to them).

 

[Reg Braithwaite]

...to form a large group, with a mob mentality ( being mad can be a powerful motivator for action)...

The noun "mob" is usually preceded by the adjective lynch. I do not think this "mob mentality" you speak of has a very good track record for achieving just reforms. Instead, it has a long and repugnant record for wrongful executions without trial, the pillaging of property, and the destruction of civilized behavior.

I understand you are angry, however mob rule will not solve our problems.

 

[Cave Diver]

Now THEY are on the endangered species list.

And you are right. A law will only make sure that the person who broke the law gets punished if caught. If they killed someone, they are still dead unfortunately. A law is nothing if not a deterrent (by this I simply mean that if someone is not worried about possible consequences, then a law means nothing to them).

And now we've come full circle back to Dan's arguement.

The law by itself does no good without the teeth to back it up.

The only way to back it up is to bring awareness to it, on both sides of the coin.

We all need to work together.