Bends possible while flying 24 hrs after a dive?

[BRW]

SJ,

Think you might benefit by knowing more
about the big picture of altitude diving and
FADs -- past and present. And I say that with
all respect, too. DAN is not blazing the unknown
here. Nor is anybody else.

Experts will disagree about FAD and tuning
studies. It's a question of what statistical
level is OK. Around 1% risk is usual across
all data fits to NDLs and FAD. And many docs
will tell you that the risk is even lower
because of "false DCS". BTW, "averages" for
FADs, NDLs, etc obtained from data mean little
unless accompanied by a risk analysis.

Across the world of diving folks, not all agree
that the DAN study is necessary. Not all agree
that the rec data DAN collects gives the big
picture. Check out Dr D's earlier post. The
24 hr rule was a DAN promulgation, safe, but
not congruent with known practice nor 100,000s
of rec dives in less time.

Why do you think they are re-assessing?

For the stats, do you understand deco risk
analysis? If so, check out TDID. And/or
some of the FAD pubs in UHMS. The relative
risks for FAD in the 15 hr range are as SMALL
as rec diving (air) out to the NDLs (TDID). Plus
ask Dick and Petar for the DAN reports on
FAD that go along with their study.

If you don't understand deco risk analysis,
forget it, but ask somebody what it means and
what are the quoted levels for rec diving.
That way you can cross check what I have said
here, and earlier.

As far as related items, check out those above,
plus stuff by Pilmanis, Edel and Honacker, Egi,
plus about a dozen others. Some of their
findings embrace the old D-Grp Rule, some
the 12 hr rule, and things in between. Nothing
has really spiked the DCS FAD rate under these
rules.

Try a Net search on altitude diving, or go
to abstract archives for professional pubs
and get better educated on FAD.

Most of us still prefer to dive "within
the statistics" -- that is, less than 1%
probabilistic risk for nominal NDLs and
12 - 15 hr FADs. That means "averages" for
NDLs are what you find in most tables, meters
software, and the "average" for FADs are in the
12 - 15 hr range for single, no-deco air. In case
that wasn't obvious to you in my earlier post.
Expect the risk stuff isn't obvious to you,
so have somebody explain it to you.

Also note that these "averages" and 1% risk
level are real world recreational diving.

Hope this fill some gaps in your deco
perceptions. Check out all of the above for
more insights.

But your observations were interesting.


Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr

 

[SeaJay]

BRW once bubbled...
SJ,

<snip long, pointless diatribe>

Hope this fill some gaps in your deco perceptions. Check out all of the above for more insights.

But your observations were interesting.

Amazingly patronizing. I find that pretty amazing, as you have no clue what sort of understanding I have of the statistics.

Nonetheless, "my understanding of the statistics" isn't the issue here... In fact, *I* have nothing to do with this, other than the fact that I participated in a study and got a tremendous amount of great info there.

"The issue" is YOU delving advice, when the advice can not possibly be based in statistical fact. You've attacked me several times here... From the simple patronizing above to the accusation of ignorance to the beating you're attempting to give with your "statistics," which you still have yet to produce (even though you offered them).

Wouldn't it have simply been easier to say that you don't believe what the agencies - and thus, DAN - has told you? That seems like the bottom line. You've made recommendations to people that completely disagree with the accepted "safe" limit and then neglected to show your any proof of your claims.

Whatever. Feel free to have any opinion you want... But your opinion should come with a warning to all that read it... That any statistical evidence you have on the subject has not been verified... Or even seen.

If you have it, then produce it. If you produce it, then we'll munch on it. If it maintains validity, then we'll compare it to other evidence that we have confidence in, and perhaps a new standard will form.

Until then, please don't recommend anything other than what's the accepted norm in safety. Someone might believe you.

 

[BRW]

SJ,

Tsk, tsk, but sorry if you feel offended.
Didn't mean it that way.

The stats are all over the place -- go check
them out at the sites/sources I mentioned.

Do you have any of them? Have you checked
the stats I quoted earlier about risk? Any
probs? My stuff is in TDID.

Again, the stats are nothing new -- they are
public record. If I have misquoted them
I am sure you will tell us about it?

As far as the DAN FAD study, I applaud it. I
wouldn't pay for it from what we already know,
though.

And 24 hrs is hardly the "accepted safety
norm" by any measure today. Why do you
think DAN did the quick shuffle on their
earlier 24 hr recommendation?

My suggestions for FAD are based on stat
analysis (TDID bubble risk functions)over some
1700 dives in the RGBM Data Bank. And melded
into NAUI Tables, tested and out there for a
bunch of time. Tec and rec.

No probs either.

I don't control FAD, only make suggestions
based on model correlations with data. As others
do too. But I and C & C do dive what I have
developed. And so is an exploding cadre of
divers worldwide.

Hope you have had enough of this, as I have.
But, like the O'Reilly Factor, maybe you want
the last shot (word).

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr

 

[crispos]

OK, break it off now guys....everyone knows, BRW is an expert in his field, and SJ, you are a kick ass diver. Now, lighten up, kiss and make up and check this out (this is not N2 bubbles coming out of solution):

http://img.tapuz.co.il/forums/20208414.htm

 

[BRW]

C,

Works for me.

But on the website you hyperlinked, I seem
to be getting emails from same? You too?

Thanks.

Bruce Wienke
Program Manager Computational Physics
C & C Dive Team Ldr

 

[ppilot]

This entire thread is a moot point. The FAA has a regulation that you have to wait 24 hours before you can fly (on any commercial flight any of us would be on, anyway.) If you break this rule (and they will find out if you do) you are subject to detention, probably at camp X-Ray, and you and your families will all pay the price.







(absolutely everything in this post is a lie)

 

[BigJetDriver]

ppilot once bubbled...
This entire thread is a moot point. The FAA has a regulation that you have to wait 24 hours before you can fly (on any commercial flight any of us would be on, anyway.) If you break this rule (and they will find out if you do) you are subject to detention, probably at camp X-Ray, and you and your families will all pay the price.

YOU FOOL!!!! You've given our agenda away! You and your family members will be taken to Area 51 for this!!! We know where you live!!!!:blmeanie:

 

[pipedope]

But I would like to hear more about what I have heard and seen.

The majority (most if not all) of divers who got bent on a plane were showing symptoms before the flight.

In this case there is no set number of hours that will make you safe. If you are showing DCI symptoms call DAN, go to the chamber and get treatment. Until you have NO symptoms of DCI you can't even think of getting on a plane, unless it is a low altitude med-evac.

 

[BRW]

Enforcement of, and adherence to, the FAA 24 hr regulation
outside the US (and even inside), might be a bigger moot point.

Suspect the legalities fall in the same category as getting
bent while walking from sea level to 8,000 ft after NON-DIVING,
as somebody on this list fervently admonished. At least the latter
admonition is entertaining. Diving religion is always funnier than
hard time. But not as convincing

Any data? Even n = 1 is interesting, if not conclusive.

At any rate, I will not make any 8,000 ft climbs out here
in New Mexico after non-diving til I wait 24 hrs and check with
the FAA.

 

[Don Burke]

BigJetDriver69 once bubbled... YOU FOOL!!!! You've given our agenda away! You and your family members will be taken to Area 51 for this!!! We know where you live!!!!:blmeanie:

Are you guys sure that's oxygen in those bottles you've been breathing from?