"S" Drills

[lamont]

( i suppose i should really split this thread out into the DIR-nameflame argument and send that thread off to a better group... i've got real work to do though... )

 

[ScubaDocER]

I don't think there's anything specifically DIR about bad attitudes or nasty tones, you'll find that aplenty in any group. I think it's also reasonable to assume they you'll trigger some defensive attitudes from any group when you go into their forum and start prodding them about how bad their name is and how many of their members are jerks. Maybe we should all try to save a few brain cells today and let it lie?

It's interesting how somethings never change. When I was thinking about taking my GUE Cave 2 class in 2000 I was warned by some people not to get involved with "those people". At the time I was not really given an intelligent answer as to why I should not. I had heard that "those people" were arrogant, ego-centric, and condemning of anyone who did not follow their philosophical view on cave diving. When I actually took the class through Tyler Moon I found the exact opposite. I remember meeting David Rhea and thinking he's just a regular guy who was very nice and extremely helpful. Tyler was outstanding. Very thorough in his lecture classes and very helpful if I had questions or problems. I learned a great deal from him about being a better diver in general. He never condemned the way others dived, just explained why GUE chose the approach they did to cave diving. He had a legitimate response to any question asked of him and not once did he say that I was going to "die if I did not do it their way" or "because I said so". I did however talk to many DIR trained divers or those seeking DIR training who would say just that. They would spout on about how other divers were just an accident waiting to happen. They would obsess to the point of tears about which pocket the wet notes belonged in according to DIR. It seemed as if DIR took on a larger than life persona for them.

My personal opinion was that the DIR philosophy was a sound one. There was sound reasoning behind the decisions that were made, from uniformity in gear configuration, to a uniformity in a philosophical approach to cave diving. Everyone was clearly on the same page and there was great comfort in that for me. It was properly taught and promoted by the Instructors but became almost a cult following by some of its disciples. Their faith in the system was not always tempered by a true understanding of its implementation and that I believe led to a conflict in how it was presented to other divers. Arguments at the cave site seemed to be common. It was truly a religious experience for some. And like some religions, the disciples lacked tolerance for the views of others. Since I was trained my NSS-CDS and GUE I had the opportunity to observe both training approaches. I gained a tremendous amount of knowledge from both and feel fortunate that I participated in both. NSS-CDS gave me the time to feel comfortable in the water (My Instructor insisted we take a year to get our Full Cave) and to work on my buoyancy skills and to just feel comfortable being in a cave. GUE refined MANY of my skills and thoroughly tested me to make sure I was comfortable in as many situations as my Instructor could imagine. I would not have made it through my GUE class if I did not have my NSS-CDS training.

I think the negativity that may be perceived from some DIR divers comes from their passion in their belief of the DIR philosophy. It works for many. Does not work for others. This passion can be inferred as an obsession and being overbearing. The people in the DIR system that I connected with were those that could calmly and rationally explain to me why they did what they did and how it helped them to become better divers. The logical was appreciated. It was more than a "do it this way because I did it this way" approach. I respected that. It was concise and consistent among the divers who believed in it. I believe that if more people in GUE/DIR had that educational approach to discussing the DIR philosophy, it would be better understood and better appreciated. Just my opinion.

 

[Peter Guy]

PfcAJ -- Thanks -- and an interesting change in my POV. If I understand your point, when you plan on a backgas deco obligation, you would calculate RB for the obligation (i.e., what you and your buddy need to do the deco to the surface or to the next gas switch) and then calculate the thirds for your penetration based on your gas minus your RB reserve. Is that correct? If so, then my restatement would be that in Cave you don't use RB when there is only minimum deco obligation. Correct?

 

[PfcAJ]

Thats pretty much it. So if your deco starts at 160, but your first gas switch is at 70, you've got to have enough gas to get everyone from max pen to 70, while doing your proper ascent. Total gas minus RB/3 = penetration gas. You can mitigate that to some degree by adding a deeper deco gas.

Now take something like Ginnie. Your deco starts at 40-50ft, and even on a real long dive, you'll have maybe 20 mins before you get on your 20ft bottle, requiring roughly 20cuft. On a dive that incurs that much deco, you'll almost certainly have 2 stages each which between them will have enough gas to get you to 20ft, kind of a build in bonus rock bottom thats not in your backgas. Thats why most dives at the popular locations don't need a traditional RB, but those deeper caves to.

 

[ucfdiver]

Maybe it is the above tone or attitude about many DIR divers that pisses people off.

Doesn't really piss me off, I can always choose to ignore a thread. But for me, that wasn't an issue, as DIR divers have been more helpful to me than any other group. Let's face it, no other system has been proven safer, or more efficient. If there's some that offend me, I can ignore it....or listen to it and think about it. Someone can be a dick, and absolutely right at the same time.

Avoiding a style of diving just because of what George Irvine said 10 years ago, or some anonymous poster on the internet is just silly.

For me, most all issues I had when I first started diving beyond recreational limits had a DIR solution, even though I was a bit too hard headed to listen. Eventually I just accepted that DIR isn't the ONLY right way, but it happens to be one of (if not the) most proven way, and spending time reinventing the wheel is a whole lot less fun than going diving.

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

However, I disagree that seeing the gauge will increase the stress level. If anything, it should confirm that you ENOUGH gas for exit, and calm everyone down.

If you plan the gas usage correctly and everybody follows the plan, then you already know you have enough gas for the exit. Checking the gauge won't show or confirm anything that you didn't already know before you started the dive, so there's no value to that step that I can see.

In the situation that my OOG buddy wants to see the gas, I want to be able to present it to him efficiently, cleanly, and without issue.

If they ask to see then it I would show it, but I would not offer it unless they asked. I can't think of anybody in my "inner circle" of dive buddies who would ask to see it, though.

 

[ae3753]

If you plan the gas usage correctly and everybody follows the plan, then you already know you have enough gas for the exit. Checking the gauge won't show or confirm anything that you didn't already know before you started the dive, so there's no value to that step that I can see.

You plan the gas usage correctly, everybody is following the plan, and now someone is OOG.

As I mentioned earlier, if I was the OOG diver, I don't need to see the gauge.

However, not everyone is like you and I.

It's plausible that the OOG diver doubts the gas plan since he just ran out. Maybe the team got too aggressive, maybe too complacent, maybe the environment changed on egress, etc.

If the OOG diver wants to see the gauge, I want to be able to show it to him without issue. And that's why I practice it, so I have comfort being able to do it if needed.

In an actual OOG emergency, I would like to think that we can make a real time determination if showing a gauge would be useful or not.

If they ask to see then it I would show it, but I would not offer it unless they asked. I can't think of anybody in my "inner circle" of dive buddies who would ask to see it, though.

I don't dive with just an "inner circle" and I dive with a lot of new divers and those interested in DIR. In addition, I dive in an area where there are other dive teams.

Well whether you show your SPG or don't show your SPG in an S-Drill, I'd still dive with you. If you need to show it, better to be efficient at it. And from my perspective, might was will build that efficiency with a drill. If you don't, then you don't. Not a big deal on the grand scheme of things.

 

[b1gcountry]

The sad thing is, like I mentioned above, is DIR could be the greatest thing since swiss cheese. From what I have uncovered through research, conversations is that the DIR philosophy and practices make a lot of sense.

The loss is really to the DIR philosophy and way. As DIR divers maybe you could self police or moderate yourselves?


The information I get from the DIR forum tends to be clear and concise.

Unfortunately it is comments like this that piss off and turn people off from DIR.

:cussing: Rainer.

It sounds like you know everything you need to about "The DIR way" If you want to avoid all the rest, then you'll have to avoid the internet. You're going to get that wherever you go, DIR or not.

As to the name thing, most divers have never even heard of DIR, so it can't be that. Most people who take up diving do it as a check mark on their life experience list. They never intend on being regular divers, let alone devote enough time improving their abilities where they are truly in control underwater. Even if all those divers pursued DIR training, it would still be less than 1% of the divers certified each year.

The market just isn't that big, and by the time you know you want it, the name probably isn't going to stop you.

Tom

 

[TSandM]

It's sad if anyone stops at the name. If you don't take the time to look at the system, because your back is up over the name, you probably wouldn't take the time to read through how it works and ponder what value it would have to you to change what you are doing.

Honestly, I wouldn't care if they called it "guaranteed grade A a&&hole diving". It works for me. It has given me three years of stress-free, exciting, companionable diving in a wide variety of environments. It has also made me a part of a wonderful, enthusiastic diving community that stretches from BC to San Diego (and then down into Mexico as a satellite). I can go anywhere on the West Coast and find great buddies -- people I can COUNT on being happy in the water with, because we all know what to expect from one another.

If you don't like the name . . . go read the threads about bad dive buddies, people who don't follow the plan or run out of gas or can't be found or otherwise spoil the dive for someone else. Then think about getting in the water with someone whose gear is the same as yours, with a dive plan you both agree on, and procedures, signals, and limits you both completely understand because they are universal. Imagine a buddy who is trained to make staying in contact with you a primary imperative of the dive. Imagine a dive like a dance, where everything flows and is graceful, and the team interaction is even part of the fun.

You can do all of these things outside of DIR diving. But you'll be guaranteed of them within the DIR community. In fact, I'm about to get on a boat with 20 other people, and one of the amazing things about the trip is that I could reach out with my eyes closed and grab someone, and jump in the water with them, and be assured of a great dive. Who cares if it's doing it "right" -- it's doing it great!

 

[DIR-Atlanta]

You plan the gas usage correctly, everybody is following the plan, and now someone is OOG.

Or has had an equipment issue that prevents them from getting to the gas they have. Not all gas emergencies are the result of inattention on the part of the diver who is "out".

If the OOG diver wants to see the gauge, I want to be able to show it to him without issue. And that's why I practice it, so I have comfort being able to do it if needed.

With all due respect, I don't see that it should require a lot of practice to unclip a gauge and show it to someone. Certainly not so much that I feel the need to do it on every S-drill. Most of my cave diving is on stages anyway, and so we do not really touch the back gas that much. I generally find it sufficient to unclip and check once for the predive planning, and then of course as needed during the dive, after dropping the final stage.

In an actual OOG emergency, I would like to think that we can make a real time determination if showing a gauge would be useful or not.

Again, my position is that checking the SPG during an actual emergency provides no useful information, and I therefore see no reason to waste the time to do it. Unless of course my buddy wants to see it, at which point it is a simple matter to unclip and show to him or her.

I don't dive with just an "inner circle" and I dive with a lot of new divers and those interested in DIR. In addition, I dive in an area where there are other dive teams.

I do all of that as well. However, I won't do "just any cave dive" with "just any cave diver". There are certain caves where I might be comfortable doing a pick-up dive (Peacock, for example), but for certain other sites, there are only a handful of folks that I would choose as a buddy, at least until I had done a couple of warm-up dives with them elsewhere.