Tipping protocol

[azchipka]

I don't need a divemaster when I dive off of my boat or shore dive.

So what your saying is you don't tip when you go out to eat cause you could have gone to the kitchen made your own food, brought it out to the table, then cleaned up your own mess afterwards.

Based on the exact same logic you don't need a boat captain to drive the boat cause you can drive your own.

Sure you may not "need" them but if you didn't want the connivence of having them there you wouldn't be on someone else's boat to begin with.

I still think they should be payed by their employer, the employers are the ones that require them.

In regards to the employers being the one's who require them this is actually not true PADI authorized dive boats that carry more then six paying passengers must have a Dive Master on board. For those holding less then six paying passengers the boat captain must be a Dive Master. So no the employer is not the ones that are requiring them its the insurance companies that require them. This is not a coast guard requirement. If you think about the statement of employers require them then you would realize that in this economy there is no way a dive shop would put an employee on the boat just for the sack providing you with an extra level of customer service that you have stated you could do yourself anyways.

 

[DennisS]

In regards to the employers being the one's who require them this is actually not true PADI authorized dive boats that carry more then six paying passengers must have a Dive Master on board. For those holding less then six paying passengers the boat captain must be a Dive Master. So no the employer is not the ones that are requiring them its the insurance companies that require them. This is not a coast guard requirement. If you think about the statement of employers require them then you would realize that in this economy there is no way a dive shop would put an employee on the boat just for the sack providing you with an extra level of customer service that you have stated you could do yourself anyways.

That's pretty much what I said. The employer requires them. No divemaster, no insurance.

 

[azchipka]

That's pretty much what I said. The employer requires them. No divemaster, no insurance.

LoL ok well that statement needs to be finished

No Dive Master = No Insurance = No Coast Guard Inspection = No Dive Boat = No Diving on the Reefs that can't be reach by shore diving.

 

[Madacub]

Another question. and please, nobody jump on me for this, it is indeed just a question. When diving in a place where the local wages are considerably lower than US/European standards, does it make a difference in tipping practices if the DM is local, or someone from , for example the US? It certainly shouldnt, as service and help should (in my humble opinion) be rewarded equally, regardless where the person is from, right?
Yet, in some of your replies I have gotten the feeling that over tipping is just as bad as under tipping, for some very valid cultural reasons. Sooo, lets say the DM is from a country where tipping is encouraged and expected, but this person is now working in Egypt or Thailand. Which rules apply, what is expected?

I would say local rules apply. For sure. An Amarican DM working in Australia is earning Australian wages and should not expect an American tip on top of that.

 

[Madacub]

Just so that you know, that is absolute nonsense!

No one who lives on tips - I don't care WHAT culture they come from, live in now, or aspire to live in - will be offended by being "over" tipped.

Near as I can tell the only people that propagate such silliness are the people who don't like to tip.

RJP, I don't think you got the point on cultural differences. Austriandiveress' point was: Given that there are situations where the service providing people do not live on tips, then overtipping, meaning where service was not over & beyond, is just as bad as undertipping in other situations.

You say that is nonsense. But then you go on to explain "No one who lives on tips - I don't care WHAT culture they come from, live in now, or aspire to live in - will be offended by being "over" tipped". But that was not the situation on hand. The example was about cultural situations where tipping is not the norm. Care to modify your response?

 

[Chris Hipp]

I agree that you should tip what you feel is right. You must also keep in mind that tipping in the states is not the same as tipping in other parts of the world. Culturally speaking. With the exception of waiters, tipping in the US is purely to reward for a job well done. Other parts of the world tip as a way to say thanks for any deed.

I read in a book about a guy who went to India and he said that they tip everyone for everything there. He was used to tipping people for doing small tasks that he could do himself, but it was the custom there. He got back to the state and he needed to make a phone call (pre cell phone era) and he asked a man for change for a dollar, but he only had $.75. He told him to keep the change, but the man followed him around and kept trying to figure out a way to not take his quarter.

That being said, I suppose I would say $5 per day is absolute minimum for somewhere like Cozumel. If you don't think they are worth that then you should probably use a different dive-op. On the flip side, on a trip to Curacao, we had a divemaster that just constantly went out of his way and beyond the call of duty for us. We all got together and agreed to tip him extra....he made somewhere between $600-$800 for our 5 days of diving. We also made sure to tip him out of sight since the dive-op kinda sucked and I couldn't tell you the name of anyone else who worked on that boat.

 

[azchipka]

Im not so sure If i would agree that tipping in the US is purely to reward a job well done. I can think of a number of people you are essentially expected to tip for services; examples:

Cab Drivers ( no real good job here you got to your destination or you didn't)
Hotel Bell Hops (are my bags in my room)
Food Delivery Drivers (wow you found my house)
Hotel Cleaning Ladies (my rooms not dirty)
Bar Tenders (unless you never want to get your drinks)
Strippers (ya you get the idea)

The list goes on and on but its basically anyone in a service based industry.Ever try to get a lap dance after not tipping the dancers for an hour straight its impossible! Whats the world coming to these days!

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

We have two divers. The average cost at Kona to go out on a boat is about 125 per person per day. So, for a two tank dive with $40 more in tips, I am going to be dropping $290 per day for riding a couple miles in a boat?

...

I was there a couple months ago, and the few dive boats in Kona that were even going out had 3 or 4 divers on them, and most shops with multiple boats were only taking one out, if any. We were out with 3 divers three of the five days we were there, and we were with one of the biggest operations on the island (Big Island Divers). Kona Honu were taking one of their cattle boats out with 4 or 5 people on them per day.

Sounds like you are punishing the crew for working on a guided charter where the owner policy is to set up gear.

Actually, if I wanted to "punish" the boat crews I would just shore dive and they could not take the boat out at all. Three of the five days, if we were not on the boat, it wouldn't have gone out, at all, since they won't run it for less than 3 paying customers. Had we not been there, the Captains and the DM's would have had a dry day entirely.

I was quoting the "standard, one day rate" not what I actually paid. We did a 5 day deal with them for $85 a day per person, so in actual fact I tipped them 12 percent per day. Going with your $10 per tank, that would have been 24 percent per day.

Now it REALLY sounds like you were punishing the crew! You took advantage of the current bad economic situation to swing a killer deal, and then didn't even share some of the bounty with the crew???

First you whine that $290 per trip is too high, but if you had given a $30 tip for the two of you it would have only cost you $200, not $290.

Did the crew go ahead and do their job? But with only 3 cheap $5 per tank tippers they only got less than $20 tip each out of the trip. I would have REALLY been wondering what I did wrong to only get that much on a nearly private charter.

One reason to only go to close sites with 3 divers is that's only a little more than how much fuel was covered by only 3 divers!!!

Tourists that don't understand are always doing math this way; thinking WE are fleecing them. The truth is everything is shipped in for us and you to survive this paradise. You think it's expensive for you, walk a mile in our shoes. The reason I took a couple day break from this thread was cause I was beat from my two jobs.

The dive shop and charter owners are doing no better; there are lots of foreclosures going on here and the dive industry will be much leaner after the dust settles. Lots of great instructor/guides will be changing careers when the majority of the operators go belly up!

If you call just barely covering the bills fleecing, yes we wish we had been fleecing you all these years that we have been going backwards!

 

[austriandiveress]

RJP, just so that you know... that "nonsense" doesnt come from me, but seems to be the opinion of some posters here, who seem to be nice folks who have thought about this a lot, and not cheapskates looking to stiff somebody. I stated earlier it is my impression that I tend to overtip: I certainly may be wrong, which is why I find this thread so interesting.

 

[Deefstes]

I couldn't agree more with DennisS and in fact, I might be even more stingy still. I'm probably one of those cheapskates that Vladimir refer to then.

To me a tip has always been an "over and above" gratuity that I give for "over and above" service. Good service is not "over and above" service and, despite what many operators like to believe, if you merely give the client what you promised to give him, you did not provide over and above service, you provided merely good service. I don't think there should be any expectation from anyone that they should get a tip by default (as has become the case in the USA it seems).

I know that some industries exploit their employees and this is not unique to the USA. The restaurant business in South Africa for instance (and I believe many countries all over the world) have devolved to such thuggery. Waiters are paid dismally by the employer and they really rely on the tips they get from customers, this while they are not in the employ of the customer. I abhor that concept and I know I'm not going to be able to change it but I wish I could. Knowing that this is how it works though, I do tip waiters (and dive boat staff) but I do so grudgingly.

I would much prefer to be told by a service provider (such as a scuba operator) what they offer, what I can expect and how much it will cost. I can then balance cost vs. benefit and decide if I want to purchase. That's free market. They don't pass off the paying of their boat licence, marine tax, fuel costs etc. to me so why do they pass the paying of their deck staff off to me? Just build it all into the price (like you do with boat licence, marine tax and whatever other expenses you have in order to run a business).

I'm just curious, if I tell a boat crew before hand, "you know guys, I'm not going to tip you today so don't bother with extra service for me, I'll be quite happy just with the normal service". Do you think I'm going to see normal service or am I going to see poor service? I'm guessing I will see poor service. Something about that just doesn't seem right to me.

But hey, I know I'm in the minority here so I basically just bite the bullet and do as the Romans do but I can't deny that I do it with more than a small amount of resentment.

Phew, glad I got that off my chest. Now hiding under a rock from the lynching that is to follow.