Tipping protocol

[Deefstes]

Also, the argument that you don't want to tip excessively when in countries with lower income seems logical to me but there is also another angle to that consideration.

What is a diver to do who comes from a country with a lower income and dives in a wealthy country. Say for instance an Egyptian diver visits Austria? It's quite possible that a 2 tank dive costs him an entire day's income. A South African software engineer with 10 years' experience will have to cough up roughly one day's income for a 2-tank dive in places like the USA.

For such a diver to now also give a 10-15% tip does actually hurt his pocket.

 

[Lorenzoid]

Im not so sure If i would agree that tipping in the US is purely to reward a job well done. I can think of a number of people you are essentially expected to tip for services; examples:

Cab Drivers ( no real good job here you got to your destination or you didn't)
Hotel Bell Hops (are my bags in my room)
Food Delivery Drivers (wow you found my house)
Hotel Cleaning Ladies (my rooms not dirty)
Bar Tenders (unless you never want to get your drinks)
Strippers (ya you get the idea)

The list goes on and on but its basically anyone in a service based industry.Ever try to get a lap dance after not tipping the dancers for an hour straight its impossible! Whats the world coming to these days!

As I pointed out in my comment above, in the US the contemporary purpose of tipping is in fact not closely related to whether the job was well done or poorly done (though the purpose may historically have been so). In the US, the primary purpose of tipping is to provide part of the living wage expected by that category of employees legally referred to as "tipped employees," who are paid unrealistically low wages (and can even legally be paid less than the normal government-mandated minimum wage). As I pointed out, in the US the "tip" is clearly part of the tipped employee's ordinary compensation. It does suck that this is not made clear to the public and that there is not a clamor to simply add a service charge to every bill instead of pretending that there is an "optional" tip. It is not really optional; if it came to pass that everyone stopped tipping in the US, the price of the restaurant meal or whatever service we are talking about where tipped employees are involved would eventually have to rise.

But I have no idea what the compensation deal is for dive personnel in far off countries. If, as in some developing countries, they are paid better than the majority of the population, then the tip would indeed serve some other purpose than it does in the US and therefore it could be reasonably debated whether the tip should be the same generous percentage as it would be in the US. Anyway, the reason that tips have become large in the US is that tips are now considered (and recognized by the government) as a component of the "tipped employee's" wages little different from the component that the employer pays.

 

[austriandiveress]

Deefstes, I think you raise some very good points. It is indeed frustrating to think that so much hinges for so many people on us tipping "correctly" (whatever that is, afraid its an unsolvable dilemma).... It sure would be easier if the policy were clear and uniform, but that aint gonna happen.
If it's any consolation to you: your diver from Egypt would probably find diving in Austria to be very affordable. (and probably rather chilly) You simply rent your tank, put your gear together yourself and walk into the water: I'm not aware of places that employ DMs or even boats that take people anywhere to dive, though they certainly might exist. (I've only been to one such lake, and the shop owner piled us in his car and drove around to the other side of the lake; the price for this was clear and reasonable from the beginning) So... nobody to tip!

 

[Deefstes]

Good post, and you're absolutely right. Doesn't mean I have to like it though

Anyway, the reason that tips have become large in the US is that tips are now considered (and recognized by the government) as a component of the "tipped employee's" wages little different from the component that the employer pays.

I've been very fortunate to have visited the States on a number of occasions and every time, despite the multitude of great things I see and experience, the hidden costs drive me mad! It is quite simply impossible to budget for a vacation or job visit to the States. There are just too many hidden costs that lie in wait and pounce when you least expect them.

But I guess I should stop hijacking this thread.

Enjoy the weekend all.

 

[RJP]

For such a diver to now also give a 10-15% tip does actually hurt his pocket.

If you can afford the trip, you can afford to tip.

 

[InTheDrink]

As I pointed out in my comment above, in the US the contemporary purpose of tipping is in fact not closely related to whether the job was well done or poorly done (though the purpose may historically have been so). In the US, the primary purpose of tipping is to provide part of the living wage expected by that category of employees legally referred to as "tipped employees," who are paid unrealistically low wages (and can even legally be paid less than the normal government-mandated minimum wage). As I pointed out, in the US the "tip" is clearly part of the tipped employee's ordinary compensation. It does suck that this is not made clear to the public and that there is not a clamor to simply add a service charge to every bill instead of pretending that there is an "optional" tip. It is not really optional; if it came to pass that everyone stopped tipping in the US, the price of the restaurant meal or whatever service we are talking about where tipped employees are involved would eventually have to rise.

This is nuts (although I don't doubt it's true). Tips should not be required to make up a minimum wage. Tips should always be discretionary. If they are a primary input into the overall wage then something is very wrong IMO. It's also stupidly confusing as this thread has shown.

Anyone remember Mr Pink's (reservoir dogs) take on tipping? He had it right. If tipping was taken out of the equation as a standard then people working in these industries would get paid a proper wage and people paying for whatever service would be able to evaluate the cost without second guessing local culture, currency and god knows what else.

Just my 10-15%.

J

 

[vladimir]

I couldn't agree more with DennisS and in fact, I might be even more stingy still. I'm probably one of those cheapskates that Vladimir refer to then.

The "cheapskate" comment was a little tongue-in-cheek.

Deefstes, I think you raise some very good points. It is indeed frustrating to think that so much hinges for so many people on us tipping "correctly" (whatever that is, afraid its an unsolvable dilemma).... It sure would be easier if the policy were clear and uniform, but that aint gonna happen.

I try to take a "when in Rome" approach, for the most part. I was in London a few weeks ago and walked out of a restaurant without tipping. (Apologies, again, to the waitress at Bonds.) I grew up in NYC, so tipping is certainly the norm for me, and I have lived in London, so I am familiar with the protocol there. But I've been in Hong Kong for a year and a half, so I've grown accustomed to the 10% added to the bill.

Using the ubiquitous tip jar (see your local Starbucks) and the internet as tools (see bitterwaitress.com, for example) savvy service workers have made progress in re-calibrating how much and to whom we tip. Twenty years ago the norm for a tip at a restaurant was 17% and the idea of tipping a cashier would have been ridiculous. Now it's 25% and everybody gets tipped. At the same time, Americans have exported tipping to a lot of places where there is no such custom.

I have always been a generous tipper, but I share your discomfort with the lack of clarity as service workers everywhere clamor for inclusion into the tip pool and muddy the traditional guidelines, and I resent the constant campaigning for higher tips whenever the opportunity presents itself.

 

[TheDiveBus]

Wow, what an interesting thread, I had no idea what a complex subject this was!

I'm a Brit - to add another culture into the melting pot on this thread - and we tend to tip in those 'above and beyond the call of duty' circumstances, as many of you have mentioned. Even in a restaurant (in the UK) - if the service or food is ok, no tip. If it's awesome, tip. (Lap dancers... I'll have to pass on that one )

Here's my input from the different 'hat's I've worn as a diver over the years:

- As a recreational diver, I resent being told how much I have to tip AND in other cases, being expected to tip - including being hijacked by a guy walking around with a jar at the end of a dive on many ocassions.

- Whilst working as a professional diver (before having our own op), I never expected or felt that I was rightfully entitled to a tip just for doing my job. It's true that dive masters and instructors generally get paid peanuts but most of us aren't in this business to get rich, and we know that going into the industry in the first place. BUT when I did receive tips, I was thrilled that someone thought I'd delivered a serivce over and above what they were expecting.

- So now we have our own dive operation, where soliciting for tips is expressly forbidden, every tip we receive makes us feel good - that we've earned it, that we've made someone's day or vacation or dive experience something special.

Of course, a tip doesn't just have to be cash (which may get around some of the 'poorer culture' dilemmas or the overtipping dilemma - which is not a problem for us at all!!!!): our divers bring cases of beer (wonderful people ) or buy the Crew drinks, lunch, dinner or whatever.

And yes it's usually - but not always - our American divers who ask what a good tip should be, and until reading this thread, we always say 'whatever you feel is right'. (Hmmm, perhaps we should put some guidelines on our website if you guys ever manage to resolve this complex subject between you all!).


So that's the perspective from one dive operator, as one of the posters requested, but as I mentioned, we're Brits so perhaps we don't count!

Looking forward to reading more posts on this thread...

All best
Suzy

The Dive Bus - HOME

 

[vladimir]

Third point/question: I was amused by the talk of the Dutch being non-tippers. Of course, most Europeans are not big tippers for the reason I mentioned above, but the Dutch do have a reputation for being especially frugal. I know because I (an American) am about to marry one of them.

Congratulations! The Dutch may be cheap, but they have many other redeeming qualities.

 

[iztok]

And yes it's usually - but not always - our American divers who ask what a good tip should be, and until reading this thread, we always say 'whatever you feel is right'. (Hmmm, perhaps we should put some guidelines on our website if you guys ever manage to resolve this complex subject between you all!).

Here is my suggestion then. If your prices are based so DMs and crew are covered in it then suggest 5-10% tip or $3/tank for great service. Otherwise state that 15% or $5/tank is customary for good and more for great service.

Part of the tip job is to reward good service and also to point out bad service.

In restaurants I tip 15-20% but I also tipped only $.01 (yes one cent) to show my dissatisfaction with service (I tipped on cc bill so it was obvious that I didn't forget the tip).