Does Nitrox make you feel better? (split from Nitrox on OW course)

[MaxBottomtime]

FACT: I perform better, am more alert, have better cognitive and motor skills (there, see how I removed "*feel* better") after diving on EAN32.

Does your LDS put something other than O2 in your Nitrox? It seems to have magical powers not available to other divers. There is nothing about nitrox that reduces narcosis, yet you have proven the rest of the World wrong. Congratulations.

 

[Jeff Godfrey]

The following article is available through the Rubicon Foundation website.


Chapman SD, Plato PA. Measurement of Fatigue following 18 msw Open Water Dives Breathing Air or EAN36. In: Brueggeman P, Pollock NW, eds. Diving for Science 2008. Proceedings of the American Academy of Underwater Sciences 27th Symposium. Dauphin Island, AL: AAUS; 2008.

Abstract: SCUBA divers often report feeling fatigued upon conclusion of diving activities. Post-dive fatigue is thought to be induced by increased energy demands of submersion in a hyperbaric environment and decompression stress. Anecdotal reports indicate a reduction in post-dive fatigue when using enriched-air nitrox (EAN). The purpose of this double-blind study was to compare subjective fatigue levels experienced by SCUBA divers after two repetitive air dives and two repetitive EAN36 dives on separate, nonconsecutive days. Eleven male participants completed pre- and post-dive fatigue assessment using the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory and a Visual Analogue Scale, while general health was assessed using the Diver Health Survey. Divers did tend to be more fatigued after diving; however, breathing gas mixture exhibited no statistically significant effect. Participants did have significantly lower Diver Health Survey scores upon the conclusion of EAN36 test sessions, possibly indicative of reduced decompression stress.

 

[schaffld]

FACT: I perform better, am more alert, have better cognitive and motor skills (there, see how I removed "*feel* better") after diving on EAN32.
FACT: for a given dive that I do, EAN32 reduces nitrogen loading compared to air.

Good enough.

Please understand that we don't always need the scientific method to understand things. The scientific method is but ONE way to gain knowledge. For example, there have never been any double blind, repeatable, placebo blah blah studies that will tell me if I will feel worse or better if I am hit by a semi truck at 100mph while crossing the road...yet I can be pretty sure I know will feel worse. Sure, an Einsteinian will say there is a non-zero probability that I will pass through the truck, but...

VI

By what method(s) do you measure your improved performance, alertness, cognition, and motor skills? Sounds like you still only feel those improvements.

Can't dispute with your statement about EAN32 reducing Nitrogen loading, but that by no means implies a cause and effect relationship between Nitrox and improved cognition, etc.

It's plausible that there is a connection, but it's equally plausible that you are simply justifying the $$$ you spent on the Enriched Air course and the $$ you spent on the Nitrox fill by convincing yourself you get these tangible benefits. It's also plausible that you got in a much longer dive on Nitrox with the extended NDL which could certainly contribute to a much more positive experience as you watch the air divers having to surface.

No, the scientific method isn't the only way to gain knowledge. Experience and common sense are also important and make it unnecessary to stand in front of a speeding truck all in the name of a scientific endeavor. If, in your experience, you get these benefits that you mentioned and you are willing to accept the added risk and cost of Enriched Air, that's awesome.:dance3:

However (there's always a 'however', isn't there?), it would be irresponsible to promote Nitrox in a way that would lead people without the necessary knowledge and experience into believing that they will benefit from these unsubstantiated claims. By no means do I remotely intend to suggest that this is what you are doing. I apologize in advance if that is the impression I'm giving.

There are, unfortunately, enough people out there who would take advantage of the debate to promote Nitrox as the Feel Good gas to make a buck or two. I would hope that a diver who is thinking about taking an Enriched Air course is a bit skeptical about claims that are, at best, speculative before spending the money and accepting the added risk of diving with Nitrox.

I see no reason to be dismissive about using a bit of well-designed science and inquiry to shed some light on the subject if it means people can make more informed decisions... but maybe I'm just being an Einsteinian

 

[Thalassamania]

The "feel good after diving" effects of Nitrox is an unproven theory.

A bit outside the borders for the basic scuba discussion thread Mike, but I agree. As long as the PPO2 doesn't collapse the alveoli in my lungs, detach my retina or cause a seizure, I'm up for hypertoxic O2. Makes a guy feel years younger! LOL

Unproven, yet DCBC and I both "feel better" and our total dives likely exceed the combined totals of everyone else commenting here; I only point this out as indicative of our learned ability to discern in a fairly objective fashion subjective phenomena like fatigue.

Yes, and cancer has been cured with sugar tablets and numerous maladies have been effectively treated by sticking needles in a person's body, and by utilizing the services of "gods and spirits".

Don't underestimate the placebo effect.

We are also both quintessential diving pragmatists, that's been the cornerstone of our careers. If we don't find that it works and it is any more trouble that SOP, it's gone in a flash.

I am basing my posts on published theories and studies.

The only way you can possibly use your own experiences as a reliable source is to do a double blind study, and I suggest you give it a try.

Have a dive buddy fill two tanks, one with air and one with a high percentage Nitrox blend, give them to you labelled in some way that only he knows what they are. Do 2 dives at a safe depth for the maximum blend, and record the way you feel with each unknown tank.

Do this perhaps a half dozen times and then compare your results with the actual known blends and then report back to this thread.

Only then will your "own personal feelings" actually mean something.

Just "knowing" that you are diving with a higher level of oxygen can "make you feel better", and this, my friend is the entire basis for the placebo effect, which has been proven countless times.

I have observed the work accomplished on quite literally thousands of dives as well as my own feeling and willingness to undertake evening activities or tasks at the close of the diving day. I defiantly have more energy when DIVING NITROX ON AIR TABLES.

I notice a difference. My wallet is a lot lighter after diving nitrox. If you're feeling tired after diving air you are ascending way too fast. Try stopping midway and take at least a minute to ascend every ten feet from there, even slower the last twenty feet. You'll feel as if you've found the meaning of life.

I've been doing that for years regardless of my breathing media and it definitely helps.

...

B.) Why will a diver feel better diving 32% than if they were diving 21%?

Less decompression stress, less lung taken up with offgassing non-symptomatic bubbles.

Does your LDS put something other than O2 in your Nitrox? It seems to have magical powers not available to other divers. There is nothing about nitrox that reduces narcosis, yet you have proven the rest of the World wrong. Congratulations.

The "anti-narcosis" effect of EAN, even if it were true, would be so small as to be rather unimportant. Could you actually tell the difference between the actual and END? Not likely.

The following article is available through the Rubicon Foundation website.


Chapman SD, Plato PA. Measurement of Fatigue following 18 msw Open Water Dives Breathing Air or EAN36. In: Brueggeman P, Pollock NW, eds. Diving for Science 2008. Proceedings of the American Academy of Underwater Sciences 27th Symposium. Dauphin Island, AL: AAUS; 2008.

Abstract: SCUBA divers often report feeling fatigued upon conclusion of diving activities. Post-dive fatigue is thought to be induced by increased energy demands of submersion in a hyperbaric environment and decompression stress. Anecdotal reports indicate a reduction in post-dive fatigue when using enriched-air nitrox (EAN). The purpose of this double-blind study was to compare subjective fatigue levels experienced by SCUBA divers after two repetitive air dives and two repetitive EAN36 dives on separate, nonconsecutive days. Eleven male participants completed pre- and post-dive fatigue assessment using the Multidimensional Fatigue Inventory and a Visual Analogue Scale, while general health was assessed using the Diver Health Survey. Divers did tend to be more fatigued after diving; however, breathing gas mixture exhibited no statistically significant effect. Participants did have significantly lower Diver Health Survey scores upon the conclusion of EAN36 test sessions, possibly indicative of reduced decompression stress.

Rather a poor study to base any definitive conclusions on since the test dives were only to 18m and were only for a series of two repetitive dives, with no consecutive day diving. That eliminates from the study the very situations (_ppO₂ held as high as is reasonable, three, four oe five dives per day, day after day after day) where the effect is most clearly felt (at least in my experience).

 

[Van Isle]

By what method(s) do you measure your improved performance, alertness, cognition, and motor skills? Sounds like you still only feel those improvements.
:

hmmmm...sorta the same way I know when I am tired before I go to bed. The same way I know if I can cross a street in a safe manner. The same way I know whether or not it's too late at night for me to drive somewhere, the same way I know when I am hungry, sad, in love, etc...need I go on? One does not need to live one's life under constant scientific testing to "know" stuff. Get off your *objective* high horse and visit the world once in a while, eh?

 

[Splitlip]

OK.

Started typing my reply here and glanced up; saw Thal's post.

What he said.

 

[Coldwater_Canuck]

I can tell you personally i know for a fact, and we are not talking a Pacebo effect.. that i have done dives i have done many times over and when do the same dives on a higher 02 mix i clearly feel better.

I wonder how you can know that for a fact? How did you eliminate the possibility of the placebo affect?

It would actually be a pretty easy thing to test semi-scientifically if someone was so determined. For like 10-20 weeks of diving, have your buddy supply your tanks (this probably violates a few standards, but safe enough if you trust your buddy). But each day of diving he randomly chooses either tanks with 36% Nitrox or Oxygen Clean air for you. You treat the dive as a 36% Nitrox for depth but as an air dive for bottom time to keep yourself safe. After each day of diving you tell your buddy if you think you were on Nitrox or not. After 10 or 20 dives it will be pretty clear if you can tell the difference.

Not that I'm advocating doing this, but if someone wanted to study it, it wouldn't be particularly difficult if 2 people are committed enough to it.


Personally, I think it is mostly a placebo affect. I always feel tired after diving, although I'm not sure how much of this is due to nitrogen and how much is due to lugging heavy tanks around, being constrained in a thick wetsuit, etc.

 

[schaffld]

hmmmm...sorta the same way I know when I am tired before I go to bed. The same way I know if I can cross a street in a safe manner. The same way I know whether or not it's too late at night for me to drive somewhere, the same way I know when I am hungry, sad, in love, etc...need I go on? One does not need to live one's life under constant scientific testing to "know" stuff. Get off your *objective* high horse and visit the world once in a while, eh?

Okay.... off my horse now to visit your world... and I will redirect you to the rest of my post in which I make it abundantly clear that, no, it is not necessary to fly the flag of science to glean every bit of information in day to day life. Furthermore, I give you full credit for your experience, and if you want to use Nitrox, all the power to you.

A little further on in my post, I bring up the concern that people who do not have your experience may be suckered into forking over their cash based on anecdotes, half-truths, and misinformation. Perhaps a good dose of objectivity is necessary.

The horse is getting restless, time for me to leave Earth and head back to my home planet of Scientificum... happy diving...

 

[watboy]

To stir the pot... do you feel better/worse after a 30meter dive versus an 18 meter dive?

I know that I definitely feel better after diving my BP/W than a rental vest.

 

[DCBC]

The "feel good after diving" effects of Nitrox is an unproven theory.

I guess what discussion threads come down to is arguing about nothing. If someone feels that Nitrox makes them "feel better" after a dive, who is anyone to try to prove them wrong? Actually you really don't feel better, believe me I KNOW how YOU feel!

If it's placebo, hocus pocus, mental attitude, physiological or just some other kinda weird shi*, who cares? My two-cents: If it works for you great! All that really counts however, is that you have fun and come out of the water with your Buddy safely.