Spiegel Incident

[tgsmith]

Thank you for the details.

You said he had a decompression stop at 30 feet. Was this part of a safety stop routine(some people start them deeper) or was this mandatory decompression? Do you know how much mandatory decompression he had?

If he was wearing a computer this can be very helpful just to see how far in the hole he was(we can all speculate being that he had a 119cuft tank of air, but lets not do that).

 

[Blue Sparkle]

sk,

Thank you so much for joining in this thread. I'm a new diver, and while it is scary to hear of things like this happening, it's also really helpful to remind myself of the importance of good habits. I have already experienced how easy it is to lose control of buoyancy in the BC on the way up. Luckily I was coming up from a shallow dive of about 35'. There's a lot to keep track of and it's all so important.

It's definitely going to help me in my future diving, so again, thank you. I wish the best for Matthew; he sounds like an amazing person.

B.

PS: idoc, I think sk meant that Matthew was going up in the position like if you were lying in bed on your stomach, while Andrew was going up in the position like you were lying in bed on your back (i.e. Matthew prone; Andrew supine). At least if I interpreted it correctly.

 

[David_57]

When I dove the SG with one dive op in Key Largo I was surprised that the gave me an Aluminum 80cuft not pumped up to the max pressure I did a quick calculation and realised I had about 74 cuft. In my opinion to give some one anything less than a min 100 cuft to dive a wreck at this depth is dangerous and incompetent. This is one of many low air incidents they have had on the SG, next time I go it will go with a dive op that have a much better selection in including pony bottles and doubles.

Not saying this is the cause but I think sometimes divers on this wreck get taken by surprise how quick their air is used up at 4 atmospheres plus the additional time to ascend, take into account if something should go wrong like getting caught in fishing line SAC rate increases un-expected deco obligation and you have a gas problem. Oh I know there are people that would say this should not happen but the fact is it does, so again IMHO charters that supply only 80 cuft bottles for dives on this wreck need to wake up and realize they are endangering peoples lives and consider more than just making money.

 

[seansrs36]

One of the things I really do not like doing in KL is going deep. I have dove the Duanne and not a big fan of going deep on an AL 80. Here in California when I go deep I have a 120 and a 40 cu pony bottle. I an a firm believer in having enough air. I would have to much air then not enough. I have also seen operations take people out to these locations that were not diving on computers. They were diving by watch. I think a lot of the time the operation is responsible to say no to a customer if they are not equipped properly for the dive or lack the experience required.

 

[skdevlieger]

BlueSparkle--yes that is exactly the position they were in. So what I was trying to put into words was that bubbles tend to "go toward the ceiling" or "UP".

Matthew's "UP" would have been his spinal cord area, while Andrews "UP" would have been his belly. I honestly don't know if this makes any difference at all, but it is something to give a thought to, since Matthew got the hit, and Andrew didn't.

Also, -----no---they were not equipped with any computers or pony bottles.

 

[boulderjohn]

In my opinion to give some one anything less than a min 100 cuft to dive a wreck at this depth is dangerous and incompetent. This is one of many low air incidents they have had on the SG, next time I go it will be with Silent divers as they have a much better selection in including pony bottles and doubles.

Not saying this is the cause but I think sometimes divers on this wreck get taken by surprise how quick their air is used up at 4 atmospheres plus the additional time to ascend, take into account if something should go wrong like getting caught in fishing line SAC rate increases un-expected deco obligation and you have a gas problem. Oh I know there are people that would say this should not happen but the fact is it does, so again IMHO charters that supply only 80 cuft bottles for dives on this wreck need to wake up and realize they are endangering peoples lives and consider more than just making money.

One of the things I really do not like doing in KL is going deep. I have dove the Duanne and not a big fan of going deep on an AL 80. Here in California when I go deep I have a 120 and a 40 cu pony bottle. I an a firm believer in having enough air. I would have to much air then not enough. I have also seen operations take people out to these locations that were not diving on computers. They were diving by watch. I think a lot of the time the operation is responsible to say no to a customer if they are not equipped properly for the dive or lack the experience required.

Please note that the divers were not using AL 80s:

Matthew and Andrew both had NEW tanks- sizes 119cf. Bob(Dad) had the old tank of 80cf.

 

[boulderjohn]

This new information is very helpful, and it clears up a lot of the confusion in the past.

• They were really not diving the Spiegel Grove as a wreck experience. They were looking for the fish that hang out there.
• That means they might well have been hanging out at sand level (~135) when they began the ascent, which would be very unrealistic if they were with a commercial group diving the wreck.
• Diving on air with the larger capacity tanks they had, they may well have incurred a fairly significant deco obligation.
• This was in no way a panic or bolt to the surface by an inexperienced diver.

Although they should certainly have started to the surface much sooner than they did, remember that with the larger capacity tanks, 400 PSI is much more than 400 PSI in an AL 80.

 

[idocsteve]

[*]This was in no way a panic or bolt to the surface by an inexperienced diver.

Not so sure I agree with you on that one.

Maybe it wasn't a full scale panic but from what I read here Matt rushed to the surface much more quickly than necessary and failed to utilize other available options.

I guess it depends on your definition of "panic" and "bolting to the surface"

 

[boulderjohn]

Maybe it wasn't a full scale panic but from what I read here Matt rushed to the surface much more quickly than necessary and failed to utilize other available options.

Were we reading the same description?

e
Matthew stopped for decompression, at around 30 feet, but not for long enough, only for about one minute. He said he was going up at an angle, then suddenly the BC vest, which he was TRYING to control, shot him to the surface straight up and fast, from about 25 feet to the surface. It happened so fast. I know I have had that happen to me while diving, but certainly not from this deep of a dive.

 

[boulderjohn]

Also, -----no---they were not equipped with any computers or pony bottles.

Thank you for all this helpful information.

Can you tell me how they were planning their decompression schedule if they were not using computers? Were they using the Navy tables or some other published plan?

Next, you said they had new 119 cf tanks. Can you tell me if they were high pressure or low pressure tanks? (It makes a big difference in how much air they had actually left with a specific PSI.)