What constitutes professionalism?

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Burna -- and just what is arrogant about what I wrote? If you don't like the definition please tell me what is wrong with my definition of a "professional." Journalists have no agreed upon set of standards to define who is, or who is not, a journalist. (Note, there is in fact a BIG controversy within journalism as to whether bloggers, for example, are "journalists." But with no generally agreed upon standards, who knows who is a journalist.) As a result, there is no profession and without a profession, there can be no professional. It should be a simple concept.

Too many people, and perhaps you?, confuse competence with professionalism. My ex-wife was (in fact still is) an extremely competent journalist -- she just isn't a member of a profession.

Well, it depends on what definition of 'profession' you use.
The Oxford dictionary gives it's definition as "1 a paid occupation, especially one involving training and a formal qualification..."
The Macquarie dictionary gives a definition of "1. an occupation requiring advanced knowledge in some area, esp. those of theology, law and medicine...

I don't really know what the state of play is within the journalism industry and, to be honest, I don't really care. If you pushed me, I would argue that a Journalist is a professional and do belong to a profession. They have undertaken study in and obtained recognised formal qualifications in Journalism. Someone who has not completed the recognised courses in journalism is a 'writer' not a 'journalist'. But this again depends on which definition of 'profession' and 'professional' you want to use.

Describing someone as a 'professional' is not necessarily implying that they are part of a 'profession', it depends on the context in which it is used.

The way you worded your post came across to me as elitist, I'm guessing that is not what you were trying to convey. It is just the way it read. (To me)
 
Wow! That comes across as one of the most arrogant things I've read in a long time!

Well you're right, but you're misunderstanding where it came from, I think.

Lawyers, doctors, in some places engineers and architects etc and (strangely) diving instructors are certified to do what they do by external parties who decide if you can practice law, medicine and so on.

To take a different example, computer programmers (good ones, at least), typically need at least 4 years of university and a bachelors degree in order to find a decent job. Such a programmer would obviously consider him/herself a professional becuase they worked hard, they have a university degree and they're employed in the field they trained for.

However, I also know a computer programmer who has a BA degree in History, of all things, and learned to program computers by trial and error in his spare time. He calls himself a "professional" computer programmer, but that would mean nothing to a lawyer or a doctor who has had someone else declare them a professional.

Peter would say, because of this--because of the possibility that someone who was unqualified can find a job as a computer programmer--that "computer programmer" is a "vocation" or an "occupation" but not a "profession" in the way he was taught to understand it.

Is it arrogance? Maybe, but I don't think it's *Peter's* arrogance. It's the arrogance of "elite" professions that create a "culture" in their clique who think of their professions as somewhat more important that other professions. It's just the way life is.

R..
 
Diver0001:
Is it arrogance? Maybe, but I don't think it's *Peter's* arrogance. It's the arrogance of "elite" professions that create a "culture" in their clique who think of their professions as somewhat more important that other professions.

It is the arrogance of professions that consider themselves elite, but it is also the arrogance of their members who buy into and espouse such elitist tripe. Quite frankly, I had thought much better of Peter than to have such a petty viewpoint. While I've not always agreed with him, I've always found him to be respectful of other people. That was not the case in this particular post.
 
To take a different example, computer programmers (good ones, at least), typically need at least 4 years of university and a bachelors degree in order to find a decent job. Such a programmer would obviously consider him/herself a professional becuase they worked hard, they have a university degree and they're employed in the field they trained for.

However, I also know a computer programmer who has a BA degree in History, of all things, and learned to program computers by trial and error in his spare time. He calls himself a "professional" computer programmer, but that would mean nothing to a lawyer or a doctor who has had someone else declare them a professional.

Peter would say, because of this--because of the possibility that someone who was unqualified can find a job as a computer programmer--that "computer programmer" is a "vocation" or an "occupation" but not a "profession" in the way he was taught to understand it.

Your assumptions are erroneous; your friend may or may no be a professional but it has little to do with his education. Some of the best programmers I know do not have degrees in computer science and some of the worst ones have advanced degrees in CS. Nothing that was taught when I went to school is applicable today (that was a world of mainframes; a world before C, C++, or object-oriented programming; a world before design was commonplace (and certainly before it was taught in school) so that education would have done me no good today. What keeps me employed as a chief software architect in this scary economy is what I have taught myself "in my spare time". I have no CS degree but I do, definitely, consider myself a professional.

No, assuming that anyone, including a dive master, is indeed a master of his craft -- that he shows any degree of professionalism -- because he took some course or passed some test is fallacious.
 
Not really wanting to take away from Bob's thread with this mini-hijack, but it may be at the heart of the debate over "What constitutes professionalism?"

Can you have "professionalism" without a generally accepted set of standards? I don't believe so -- or else what does one judge "professionalism" against?

Is there (are there?) a "generally accepted set of standards" for the teaching of Scuba Diving? IF you believe there is then you can judge the "professionalism" of an instructor against those standards. If you do NOT believe there is a generally accepted set of standards, then you are judging another on the basis of your own standards are you not? And isn't that the essence of the concept behind the master/student training method (as exemplified by Rob's discussion of the Kung Fu master)?

Walter, I must confess that I happen to believe it is a very good thing for "professions" to be elite (back to that "trained professional" who is going to work on my car). I actually WANT my physician, lawyer, engineer, etc. to be elite and trained and examined to some standard, don't you?

Burna -- any number of journalists have zero formal training in "journalism" (which is, in fact, a fairly new outgrowth within formal education). They learned the old fashioned way -- by apprenticing and just doing it. This is no reflection what-so-ever on their competence because, as I've written before, competence and professionalism are two separate concepts IMHO.

Arrogant? I don't think so. "Elitist" -- of course. But really, don't you want your "professionals" to be among the elite? Even Scuba Professionals like Walter?
 
I mean ... is it really all about the money? What say you? What do you see in an instructor that causes you to think of him or her as a dive professional?

... Bob (Grateful Diver)


I dive professional to me means passing on knowledge or a "better way" to another diver, who didn't even realize you passed that knowledge onto him. As it was relayed in such a way as not seem condescending or elitism, instructor or not...As they are many divers out here that have much more knowledge and experience than those holding some type of Instructor cert...
 
Burna -- and just what is arrogant about what I wrote? If you don't like the definition please tell me what is wrong with my definition of a "professional."

There's nothing wrong with that one definition. In certain contexts it is an appropriate definition as it covers a concept that is critical to understand how some vocations operate.

However, that concept is not all of the concepts for which we use the term. In the context of this discussion it seems intuitively clear to me that we are all quite aware that different agencies have differing standards, but that instructors can still be professional in a host of other ways: in how they conduct themselves, in how some make a living from diving, in how they relate to the function of training, etc.

I would not classify what you wrote as arrogant rather as foolish. You are clearly familiar with the concept of a professional journalist, and surely are aware the term is meant in a way different from one of the ways it is applied. Thus you know that the term is used in different ways, and you simply don't wish to accept that reality.
 
Can you have "professionalism" without a generally accepted set of standards? I don't believe so -- or else what does one judge "professionalism" against?

Nor do I, however who is to say what group must set those standards before they are recognized? This may vary from State to State, or country, or region. What the standards are vary from one Bar Association to another, Regional Medical Society, or between fields of medical specialty.

Standards in commercial diving vary from one company to another, country to country, or between each associations. Legal requirements also specify if the diver is meeting worker health and safety requirements. Does this not have something to do with acting professionally?

Journalists have various associations that they may join; each having specific guidelines, requirements for admission and policies. If you are in business, there are trade associations and better business bureaus. If you have a Board or Committee that enforces said standards, why would one seem to be less than another? On whose authority?

In each of these occupations, those members of each group may consider themselves professionals. Each following the guidelines set-out and meeting the requirements and conditions of each. They may all consider themselves the "elite" of their profession. Who is to say otherwise? Or does government regulation have something to do with the correct definition?

Is there (are there?) a "generally accepted set of standards" for the teaching of Scuba Diving? IF you believe there is then you can judge the "professionalism" of an instructor against those standards. If you do NOT believe there is a generally accepted set of standards, then you are judging another on the basis of your own standards are you not?

There are accepted standards in recreational diving instruction. You have minimum certification standards, as well as ethical policies guiding instructor conduct. Although these may vary from one certification organization to another, they are enforced by each agency.
 
DC -- Thanks -- but I think the important point is that the standards be "generally accepted" and not just by the group that is purporting to set the standards.

IF there are generally accepted standards in Scuba Diving Education, then following them is "professional" and the answer to the OP's question is that one should teach in a manner that follows those generally accepted standards.

My question is that I don't believe some of the people who have responded, including the OP and perhaps you, DC, accept the "generally accepted standards" for teaching scuba (RSTC Standards) and thus would always question the "professionalism" of a teacher who "taught to the standards."
 
My question is that I don't believe some of the people who have responded, including the OP and perhaps you, DC, accept the "generally accepted standards" for teaching scuba (RSTC Standards) and thus would always question the "professionalism" of a teacher who "taught to the standards."

Who is to say that RSTC Standards are the ones that are "generally accepted" by anyone other than the members of RSTC? Is this not just an organization of members? Why not CMAS (the World Diving Federation), who has been active world-wide long before RSTC?

Interestingly enough, ACUC is a RSTC member and I'm also a CMAS instructor. Although I follow both standards, they do not restrict me to only teach to the minimums. I comply with them, yet exceed them.
 
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