What type of training...

[SuPrBuGmAn]

That being said... you can have training out your ears, and "stuff" can still end badly, which was the case in this incident.

This is a perfect example that no training is gonna get you out of everything. Nobody can say that if they hadn't had this or that training, they wouldn't have made it. There's no way to blame training on any accident, because once its happened, you've likely either learned from the experience itself and possibly got additional training(which may or may not get creditted for the newfound proficiency) or you're dead - and you're telling no tales.

People are differnet, there's alot of different training out there to fit different people and most of it is more than good enough for most people. After classes, its up to the diver to stay profficient, stay active, keep sharp, and learn from continued experience.

 

[gitterdun]

This is a perfect example that no training is gonna get you out of everything. Nobody can say that if they hadn't had this or that training, they wouldn't have made it. There's no way to blame training on any accident, because once its happened, you've likely either learned from the experience itself and possibly got additional training(which may or may not get creditted for the newfound proficiency) or you're dead - and you're telling no tales.

I completely agree with you. I just think that there is some training out there that does not cover all the bases, or is even progressed with a little bit too quickly. I know one person offhand, that went from not much experience, no cave training, to having full cave in seven days. He had no tech training, and hasn't been diving all that long. Yes, it is just my opinion, but to me, it seems like too much too fast. He just doesn't have alot of experience, and I really do hope he's safe in his "full cave" diving. He had GUE training, and decided to go another route, which is fine, but his reasoning for not going with GUE, was that he didn't want to have to do 25 dives in three years, to renew the card. Again.. just my opinion... but... if you're going to dive caves, and can't do 25 in three years, perhaps you should rethink it.


Ok.. I think I've gone on enough now.

After classes, its up to the diver to stay profficient, stay active, keep sharp, and learn from continued experience.

Amen.

 

[Dive-aholic]

Well, I wasn't going to bring it up... but.. the excrement can hit the fan...

It happened to a friend of ours ~ 3 failures at once... and it didn't end well.

Now, I am not for stressing students out, insulting them, or "overworking" them, but I like the fact that I have had training for more than one failure at a time. If it never happens, that's great. But I don't mind being prepared for it, either.

That being said... you can have training out your ears, and "stuff" can still end badly, which was the case in this incident.

I don't think the issue is whether a single failure or multiple failures is training is better. The issue is how many failures become too many. All agencies have multiple failure scenarios written into the standards - OOA Touch Contact exits.

But I also now know what a total siltout inside a wreck "feels" like, and without the benefit of a blackout mask and a "safety net".

It is completely different. I have implemented a real silt out into my cavern course. I was fortunate enough to find a cavern where this can be done safely with control maintained and give my students the experience of a real silt out.

 

[gitterdun]

I don't think the issue is whether a single failure or multiple failures is training is better. The issue is how many failures become too many. All agencies have multiple failure scenarios written into the standards - OOA Touch Contact exits.

I hear that.

I know that the OOA/OOG Touch Contact exits are existent in all cave training, but is it included in all tech courses? I only have experience with two different agencies on that front, so I just don't know, outside of them.

(I think this is a good discussion, btw)

 

[gitterdun]

I have implemented a real silt out into my cavern course. I was fortunate enough to find a cavern where this can be done safely with control maintained and give my students the experience of a real silt out.

Good stuff...

 

[cerich]

Good stuff...

I tell my students they aren't allowed to stir the silt, then they wonder why I am doing so violently and laughing out loud as I do it....

 

[rjack321]

Disagree.

While we all MAY fail eventually, unless, and until the gods decide, there may not, will not, be any failure.

Of course you disagree. If you dive enough and do stuff beyond the tourist dives you easily start getting into "failures" like Bob's example of #1 continuing and seperating the team when the rusticles fall everywhere. Primary light "failures" are such a yawn those don't count.

 

[rjack321]

I tell my students they aren't allowed to stir the silt, then they wonder why I am doing so violently and laughing out loud as I do it....

Diabolical :cool2:

 

[gitterdun]

I tell my students they aren't allowed to stir the silt, then they wonder why I am doing so violently and laughing out loud as I do it....

Lol.

 

[Meng_Tze]

..... Nor, of course, are we smart enough to contemplate all the various ways in which we might "fail" .....

Hence, we all fail eventually. Spot on!