Wing vs. Jacket

[MarcHerm]

Isn't this getting a little bit ridiculous here?

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Isn't this getting a little bit ridiculous here?

The reason for this thread "ended" on post #24 when the OP "found" his BC.

My first post in this thread started with these words;

"I personally think the OP will be fine in the rig he decided on,"

I think it is ridiculous to think/say that "most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc." when there is no data to support BP/W BC's being superior in streamlining or venting.

I think this is marketing gibberish and there are plenty of valid reasons a diver should use to make a BC choice, rather than falling for marketing gibberish.

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

So, please prove your claims.

....

They are assertions pretending as questions as I said previously and if you did this in a debate you would be called on to provide proof for your claims. People ask questions rather than make statements when they are too chicken to stand behind their ideas. Would not fly in a debate.

RULES OF DEBATE

2) Unanswered arguments are assumed to be true by the judge.

In order to promote clash, or point-by-point refutation, judges penalize debaters who do not answer each position advocated by their opponent by considering those 'dropped' arguments as true. This can be true even if the argument is of questionable validity.

3) No new arguments can be initiated in rebuttal speeches.

Debate speeches are divided into 'constructive' and 'rebuttal' categories. The first speeches for each debater are called 'constructive'. These longer speeches are where the basic position of each team are initially established. The rest of the debate is spent determining the validity of these points. This is the primary activity of the 'rebuttal' speeches. This rule is somewhat confusing for novices because it does NOT mean that there cannot be new responses or evidence presented relative to issues established in the constructive. That is permitted. What the rule prohibits are totally new issues that are not connected to positions already established in the debate. In response to new arguments, all a debater must say to the judge is that this argument does not count because it is 'new'.

4) Arguments must be extended throughout the debate to influence the decision.

To 'extend' an argument means to pursue the issue from speech to speech. The idea is not merely to repeat what was already said, but to offer new analysis or evidence of why you are still winning this argument even given the other teams last position on this argument. As a general rule, if we do not hear you 'extend' an issue in the final speech for either team (2NR or 2AR), it should not count. These are considered 'dropped' arguments and the judge should disregard them.

5) The judge is neutral.

Judges are not to 'intervene' in the round by imposing their own bias or interpretation of the issues upon the debate round. This rule may force judges to vote for teams presenting issues they personally disagree with and/or on weak arguments that go unanswered one team or the other.

I have left out the first "rule" since "time limits" do not apply hear. If we consider "most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc" to be the first "constructive" arguments, then my questions are the opposing "constructive" arguments.

My interpretation of the above rules is that in this thread, there has been no new analysis or evidence given to refute my constructive. In my eyes that makes my statements the "dropped" arguments that would be considered true by the judges.

 

[kiwidiver.com]

If I were to ever come into a thread of this ilk claiming that "vest BC's are more streamlined than BP/W BC's" I would expect to be challenged as to where's the proof behind my claims.

My current situation does not easily lend itself to comparative testing. I have tried to come up with ways to answer the questions with data, but most who participate in these discussions don't seem to be interested in data.

I have my own method of comparative testing.

I offer a try before you by policy on our Frog BCD’s and our Frog Indigo Wings, try them in the pool or take them for a dive then choose. The outcome is that so far everyone has bought the wing.

Now I haven’t been recording results as to why they choose a wing over a BCD so I can’t prove that it’s because of streamlining and not because they just want to spend more money or look “cool” but maybe I can start handing out a questioner and see what results I get.

 

[Sas]

I have left out the first "rule" since "time limits" do not apply hear. If we consider "most divers considering a BP&W are doing so for more streamlining, easier venting etc" to be the first "constructive" arguments, then my questions are the opposing "constructive" arguments.

Which only matters if you have something to back up your claims. Which you don't yet. If you had just stuck to 'you have no evidence' then what you are saying would be fine, but you went on to make up your own claims, which means you need to show evidence too.

 

[DrunkenParrot]

 

[MauiScubaSteve]

Which only matters if you have something to back up your claims. Which you don't yet. If you had just stuck to 'you have no evidence' then what you are saying would be fine, but you went on to make up your own claims, which means you need to show evidence too.

What claims? I'm claiming I'm ready to scooter race and I think I will win!

Just for you I will try again.

My claims are that; no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BI BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that Vest BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BP/W BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BI BC's vent easier, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that Vest BC's vent easier, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BP/W BC's vent easier.

Could we even confine the parameters to something finite enough to be tested?

Imagine if a; panel of "BI Experts" pick some streamlined BI's to test and some easy venting BI's to test, panel of "Vest Experts" picks some streamlined Vest's to test and some easy venting Vest's to test, panel of "BP/W Experts" picks some streamlined BP/W's to test and some easy venting BP/W's to test.

My Ideal idea for streamlined testing is an 8' diameter tube, like an aquarium tunnel, suspendible from a boat to different depths. Variable speed and pitch propellers in the front with water speed sensors next, just in front of the testing section, where the divers can see just how fast they can go/maintain. Neutral buoyancy at different depths and with different exposure protection could also be tested, as well as different body positions for all of the above.

Scooter racing is the realistic idea.

Ideally, venting tests could be done in the same Ideal tube at more pedestrian speeds, at various and changing depths, various remaining pressures, traveling adjustments, safety stop adjustments, surfacing adjustments....

Still searching for the realistic idea.

Then we would be able to rank those tested models in order of most streamlined and easiest venting, per the parameters of our test.

Considering the fact that there have been no measurements ever of any BC's Cd or ease of venting, claiming that BP/W's are more streamlined and/or vent easier just seems silly bordering on ignorant.

 

[cool_hardware52]

What claims? I'm claiming I'm ready to scooter race and I think I will win!

Just for you I will try again.

My claims are that; no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BI BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that Vest BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BP/W BC's are more streamlined, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BI BC's vent easier, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that Vest BC's vent easier, no one has any hard evidence to back a claim that BP/W BC's vent easier.

Could we even confine the parameters to something finite enough to be tested?

Imagine if a; panel of "BI Experts" pick some streamlined BI's to test and some easy venting BI's to test, panel of "Vest Experts" picks some streamlined Vest's to test and some easy venting Vest's to test, panel of "BP/W Experts" picks some streamlined BP/W's to test and some easy venting BP/W's to test.

My Ideal idea for streamlined testing is an 8' diameter tube, like an aquarium tunnel, suspendible from a boat to different depths. Variable speed and pitch propellers in the front with water speed sensors next, just in front of the testing section, where the divers can see just how fast they can go/maintain. Neutral buoyancy at different depths and with different exposure protection could also be tested, as well as different body positions for all of the above.

Scooter racing is the realistic idea.

Ideally, venting tests could be done in the same Ideal tube at more pedestrian speeds, at various and changing depths, various remaining pressures, traveling adjustments, safety stop adjustments, surfacing adjustments....

Still searching for the realistic idea.

Then we would be able to rank those tested models in order of most streamlined and easiest venting, per the parameters of our test.

Considering the fact that there have been no measurements ever of any BC's Cd or ease of venting, claiming that BP/W's are more streamlined and/or vent easier just seems silly bordering on ignorant.

Having been present at the Tahoe Bench Mark Scooter Testing I can testify that testing scooters is not simple.

To be able to correct for the various test divers requires each diver to make runs on each scooter. The number of possible variables of fit, adjustment, familiarity etc. when you try to have 1/2 dozen divers use 2-3 jackets and 2-3 BP&W's will quickly become unmanageable.

If you have a spare month and a spare $10K and 10+ volunteers, have at. Be prepared to have legions of poorly informed / ignorant critics snipe at every aspect of your protocol.

Short of well controlled experiments to test venting and drag what are we left with?

Anecdotal evidence. While I prefer quantitative, repeatable data to anecdotal evidence every time that doesn't mean anecdotal evidence is of no value.

Cave divers, particularly pioneering, exploration type cave divers highly value low drag configurations for the simple reason it allows longer deeper penetrations before reaching their turn pressures.

Few such divers choose a jacket BC


Cave divers / Wreck divers have a particular need for precision buoyancy control. Ease of venting is part of buoyancy control.

Again, few such divers choose a jacket BC.

Is this due to fashion or function?

Tobin

 

[halocline]

I'm so proud of myself for refraining from posting in this thread. Oops....so much for that.

Halemano, do you have experience diving with a backplate/wing set up? Yes or no, please.

 

[Stujiro]

That said i think the stream lined argument has two meanings and often gets confused. Streamlined to me means two things.

1. Coefficient of drag. Essentially how well do glide through the water.
2. How well organized is my gear?

For me the second one is the most important issue here. You can streamline any rig, and no rig is inherently more stream lined than any other. Just store you stuff appropriately and get it clipped in places that are easy to reach, don't get hung up, and overall just don't get in your way.

The BP/W crowd talks about streamlining and i've always assumed they are talking about point 2 here. They have a good argument to make as well because they can add as many D rings as they want, and organize their gear in lots of ways to personally suit them. Nothing wrong with this, in fact i think its really intriguing as well.

The Jacket/BI crowd can trim their stuff down, and organize and streamline their rig as well, it just isn't as customizable. Is this a bad thing? Not necessarily. When i buy a car i want it to come factory. my brother likes to swap parts. is one right and one wrong? No, we're just two different buyers. Doesn't mean we can't both have nice things. Lots of people like to have pockets on their BC's. Maybe you pick something up off the bottom and want a place to put a neat shell or something.

The first definition is kind of ridiculous for a bunch of reasons. First we're basically land dwelling primates that decided it'd be a good idea to strap a ton of stuff to our bodies and jump in the water. We are the least "streamlined" thing in the water. Second, since when is scuba a race?