Two fatalities in Monterey

[Ken Kurtis]

Well, weights shouldn't be dropped below normally, generally only with difficulties at the surface

This is about the worst peice of advice I have ever seen in this forum. I don't care where you are in the water column, DITCH YOUR WEIGHTS IN AN EMERGENCY!!!!

If you are already at the surface, you will stay there because - especially in California where we're wearing thick wetsuits or drysuits - you will now be positively buoyant.

If you are underwater, ditching your weights will help you get to the surface. If you lose consciousness on the way up, you will still arrive at the surface.

Divers at the surface, conscious or unconscious, have a very good chance of being rescued and surviving. (It's not a 100% guarantee, though.) The reason is simple: Especially the way we dive in CA, someone on the boat or even from the shore will see you.

Divers who keep their weights on and sink back to the bottom stand an excellent of becoming a fatality statistic. The chances of a diver being found in the 4-6 minute survival/revival window we have once you stop breathing are at best slim to non-existent. (I'm actually testfying in a case dealing with just that issue.)

But a diver at surface will likely be dealt with more quickly. And even if you should embolise on the way up, an embolised diver recovered at the surface can be treated in a chamber and survive. A drowned diver recovered underwater after the 4-6 minute window has closed stands little chance of surviving.

It sounds like in this case that both divers did not ditch their weights. I'm not saying that if they had, they would have survived. There's no way to predict that. But I DO believe that had they ditched their weights and even floated to the surface unconscious, they would have had at least some chance of survival.

Back to the original point: Keeping your weights on in a diving emergency can be a death sentence. Don't do it. Value your life over your lead.

- Ken

 

[DandyDon]

Well, weights shouldn't be dropped below normally, generally only with difficulties at the surface and I have seen no mention of them being seen on the surface.

Now this is amazing...

This is about the worst peice of advice I have ever seen in this forum. I don't care where you are in the water column, DITCH YOUR WEIGHTS IN AN EMERGENCY!!!!

If you are already at the surface, you will stay there because - especially in California where we're wearing thick wetsuits or drysuits - you will now be positively buoyant.

If you are underwater, ditching your weights will help you get to the surface. If you lose consciousness on the way up, you will still arrive at the surface.

Divers at the surface, conscious or unconscious, have a very good chance of being rescued and surviving. (It's not a 100% guarantee, though.) The reason is simple: Especially the way we dive in CA, someone on the boat or even from the shore will see you.

Divers who keep their weights on and sink back to the bottom stand an excellent of becoming a fatality statistic. The chances of a diver being found in the 4-6 minute survival/revival window we have once you stop breathing are at best slim to non-existent. (I'm actually testfying in a case dealing with just that issue.)

But a diver at surface will likely be dealt with more quickly. And even if you should embolise on the way up, an embolised diver recovered at the surface can be treated in a chamber and survive. A drowned diver recovered underwater after the 4-6 minute window has closed stands no chance of surviving.

It sounds like in this case that both divers did not ditch their weights. I'm not saying that if they had, they would have survived. There's no way to predict that. But I DO believe that had they ditched their weights and even floated to the surface unconscious, they would have had at least some chance of survival.

Back to the original point: Keeping your weights on in a diving emergency can be a death sentence. Don't do it. Value your life over your lead.

- Ken

Fine advice but damn.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

They were brought up without their gear? . . . that is curious.

It is not at all curious or unusual, especially not if you've got some experience in this. (In fact, I was doing some group practical rescue drills tonight where we were dealing with this exact subject. One team tried to leave gear intact and wasted about five minutes trying to get the still-geared victim into a Stokes basket and then out of the gear and then handed off. Thank goodness it was only a practice drill.)

Ditching the gear - and the weights - on the bottom when you initially find the victim certainly makes it easier to get the victim off the bottom and to the surface. You can go back and get the gear later. The main goal should be to get the victim to the surface quickly without making the rescuer into a victim too.

Ditching the gear (and the weights) only takes a moment and means the rescuer works much less hard getting the victim to the surface, will have an easier time towing the victim, makes it easier to facilitate in-water M2M should that be done, and makes it easier to hand off the victim to folks on a boat for better treatment.

Bringing the victim up with gear intact only makes all of that harder. No reason to do it.

- Ken

 

[Jim Ernst]

This is about the worst peice of advice I have ever seen in this forum. I don't care where you are in the water column, DITCH YOUR WEIGHTS IN AN EMERGENCY!!!!

If you are already at the surface, you will stay there because - especially in California where we're wearing thick wetsuits or drysuits - you will now be positively buoyant.

If you are underwater, ditching your weights will help you get to the surface. If you lose consciousness on the way up, you will still arrive at the surface.

Divers at the surface, conscious or unconscious, have a very good chance of being rescued and surviving. (It's not a 100% guarantee, though.) The reason is simple: Especially the way we dive in CA, someone on the boat or even from the shore will see you.

Divers who keep their weights on and sink back to the bottom stand an excellent of becoming a fatality statistic. The chances of a diver being found in the 4-6 minute survival/revival window we have once you stop breathing are at best slim to non-existent. (I'm actually testfying in a case dealing with just that issue.)

But a diver at surface will likely be dealt with more quickly. And even if you should embolise on the way up, an embolised diver recovered at the surface can be treated in a chamber and survive. A drowned diver recovered underwater after the 4-6 minute window has closed stands no chance of surviving.

It sounds like in this case that both divers did not ditch their weights. I'm not saying that if they had, they would have survived. There's no way to predict that. But I DO believe that had they ditched their weights and even floated to the surface unconscious, they would have had at least some chance of survival.

Back to the original point: Keeping your weights on in a diving emergency can be a death sentence. Don't do it. Value your life over your lead.

- Ken

Sorry Don, But Ken is 100% on the money here, that is why we teach our students drop their weights at the first real sign of an emergency, This whole damn thing is so sad!!!

 

[kathydee]

They were brought up without their gear? I'm confident the rescuers did their best in a horrible situation, but that is curious..

There was much speculation floating around the parking lot, but a reliable source was involved in trying to locate the missing equipment. I'm sorry, I'm not clear enough about the incident to discuss the circumstances.

 

[Jim Ernst]

Even in rescue class, we teach to get rid of the gear right from the get go.....

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Even in rescue class, we teach to get rid of the gear right from the get go.....

PADI rescue class?

But what if that gear (e.g., inflated BCD) is what's keeping the troubled diver on the surface of the water?
There was a Point Loma incident (October 2009) in which the acting DM was trying to rescue a panicked diver at the surface who had become entangled in the kelp. The DM freed the diver from his BCD prior to ditching the diver's weightbelt. The incident did not have a good outcome.

I could understand teaching that a rescuer should strongly consider ditching some or all of the victim's gear if it aids with the rescue. It's one of several options. And, if gear ditching occurs, it should be conducted in a sensible order.

In this Monterey incident, I could certainly see rescuers coming to the conclusion that ditching the victims' gear would expedite recovery to the surface where attempts at resuscitation could commence.

 

[DandyDon]

Sorry Don, But Ken is 100% on the money here, that is why we teach our students drop their weights at the first real sign of an emergency, This whole damn thing is so sad!!!

And his "worst peice of advice I have ever seen in this forum" remark is so beneficial to discussions here - fine.

I am well aware that all too many victims drown with weights still on - often having never drilled on ditching since OW class, and sure if you need to drop them to get up in the first place - do it as it beats the alternative of not getting up, but if big shot rudeness helps gets the message across - fine. My statements about normally, generally was right one, but whatever. Get some more people to click his Like.

Even in rescue class, we teach to get rid of the gear right from the get go.....

Ok, we weren't. I can see it as a more viable option in cold water with buoyant suits, less appealing in tropical waters - but if that's what y'all teach for everyone everywhere everytime, ok fine. Then, weights first if separate but I suppose that's given.

 

[tddfleming]

Update: Carson High football players die in scuba accident in Monterey

12:03 AM, Apr. 10, 2011 |
Written by
Staff and wire reports Filed Under
Local News

9:19 p.m. update: Two Carson High School students died Saturday while scuba diving near Monterey, Calif., Monterey Fire Department Division Chief Felix Colello said.


Both students were 17 years old, Colello said. He could not provide their names.


Carson City Schools Superintendent Richard Stokes told the Nevada Appeal they were sophomores in an oceanography class at Carson High School.


The students were among 19 scuba diving in 40 to 60 feet of water, according to Colello. When the two teenagers did not surface, the U.S. Coast Guard and Monterey Fire Department began a 45-minute search for them. The initial call for help came at 12:25 p.m., Colello said.


The diving company used by the students sent divers down who ultimately found the students at the bottom, Colello said. Though CPR was performed all the way to the hospital, the students couldn't be revived.


Carson football coach Blair Roman said the students were juniors, both played on the Carson High varsity football team last season and were going to be on the team again next season.


"It's devastating," said Roman, who would not release the names of the students. "It's a devastating situation for all families involved."


Roman said he found out about the news around 2 p.m.


KTVN reported that nearly 100 people gathered Saturday night in Carson City for an impromptu memorial.


Colello said it was unknown why the students failed to emerge from the water, and the Monterey Police Department and Monterey County, Calif., coroner were investigating.


9:05 p.m.:KTVN 2 reported that two Carson High School students have died in a scuba accident in Monterey, Calif.


KTVN said that the students were 17 and on the Carson football team.


Continue to check RGJ.com for updates.


--- In divingaccidents@yahoogroups.com, Robert Halem <bob@...> wrote:
>

 

[Lobzilla]

Sad news. My prayers and condolences go out to the families of the victims.

Following Jim Lapenta's comments about double fatalities being rare, I find it highly unusual that two inexperienced divers are found dead at the bottom in close proximity in open water. This may happen in a cave where you have no way up if lost or silted-out but in open water the human instinct is to bolt (even if this a bad idea). I am anxiously awaiting reliable information about quantity and analysis of the gas remaining in the tanks.

Lastly, I find the unqualified blanket-suggestion to ditch weight in ANY emergency troublesome. However, the discussion about 'When to ditch' and 'When NOT to ditch' warrants another thread.